Ponsdorf mentioned this yesterday about Blackfive’s link to JB’s Sanctuary, and I thought I’d ought to weigh in, not that I’m some great geo-political thinker like Gordon Duff, or anything, but I’ve been saying since late 2009, that it’s getting harder to support Obama’s war in Afghanistan.
Not that the troops are doing an excellent job – a much better job than the Obama Administration deserves from them. When generals ask their commander for 60 – 80,000 additional troops because without them the war is lost, the commander needs to consider those numbers carefully. Of course, we know that this particular commander made a political decision rather than a strategic decision. And this was the war he told we needed to win back during the campaign. But holding on to the MoveOn/VoteVets/Code Pink crowd was more important to him.
Obama put a dick like Karl Eikenberry in charge, with his back up being Joe Biden – tell me that’s not planning to fail. And although somewhat successful, they stepped up Biden’s plan to use robot zombie ninjas to take out Taliban and al Qaeda leadership – but even after we bombed Germany to dust, we still needed boots on the ground to liberate the Germans from the Nazis. Robot zombie ninjas can’t hold ground. Blowed-up Taliban get replaced with the non-blowed-up variety.
Obama’s half-ass attempt at a “surge” in Afghanistan only accomplished one thing – he told the Taliban that there’s a chance that we’ll eventually leave Afghanistan no matter what the situation is on the withdrawal date. They have a chance to beat the greatest power in the world.
The difference between the Bush and Obama surges? Bush, after losing an election, demonstrated that our enemies in Iraq weren’t getting any relief from our relentless military power. Obama, after winning an election gave our enemies hope.
As much as I hate to say it, if this Administration isn’t going to completely commit itself to an unmitigated victory, the war is lost, the troops are dying for nothing and our tax dollars are being wasted. The Pakistanis and Afghans are lining their threadbare pockets with US dollars while they can. They won’t commit to our vision of their future because they don’t trust that we’ll stay and help them – unlike the Iraqis three years ago – like we left them to their own devices in 1988. With the same result.
This was Obama’s war to lose and he did. Undoubtedly he’ll blame Bush, and play another round of golf.
Jonn,
I agree completely and believe it or not a lot of Senior Officers and Senior NCO’s feel that way also, only they say it in the privacy of their own quarters.
I have been a supporter of this war for years….I’m worn out supporting it now. Of course I still support our troops there but don’t think this friggin’ 9th Century country is worth one more of our troopers…NOT ONE. Just look at these assholes attacking the UN compound. Last straw for me. I watched a great special about a Marine Corps unit patroling and fighting. The people didn’t want them there, felt they were better off with the Taliban, and when the Marines left after building a little park for them, they left Afghani Security Forces who don’t even speak the local language….they were from the Northern Alliance. You could just see the frustration of the whole thing in the CO’s face and the way he spoke of it.
I don’t get it any more and agree that if the Taliban take back over and start building terroist bases….drone them to death but I can’t cotton to us sacrificeing one more life for this people.
Honor and Courage
The question is logistics:
If it takes money to pull out our forces, and underwrite the pulling out of NATO/allied forces, where will this money come from?
If there is only enough to pay to pull humans from the campaign, what happens to all the stuff; and how/when will replacement stuff be in the hands of units?
Soldiers without stuff is a bad thing. AQ, the PLA, and Russia with our stuff is even worse. And most of our stuff has to go through Pakistan, i.e. enemy territory, to get to the port.
The situation reminds me of the debates between VN vets: to take down N. Viet Nam/Laos/Cambodia (widen the Area of Responsibility to match the North Viet Namese Area of Operations) versus static and mobile defense within a set boundary (South VN’s international boundaries).
we should get out of the middle east period. i don’t trust this president, he doesn’t like America nor the military, no telling what he’ll do next. he is quarterbacking the wars from the oval office and he doesn’t know anything about war.
we need to start drilling on our own soil and start pulling foreign aid to these middle eastern countries that want us dead.
right now, all these uprisings over there is nothing but a bunch of homosexual men, who rape their children and hide their wives only to use them for procreation, running around in the streets screaming while they are high on opium and hash.
they are sheeple, these people are going to be taken over by the enemy and they don’t care, just another day in the middle east. these people are not worth wasting our people for.
we need to get our precious American people out of those hell holes, middle east, satan is alive and well there.
After the Russians left the Afgans had a civil war with thousands killed. Repeat.
Prior to the Russian invasion, the Afghans had a civil war with thousands killed.
I sense a pattern here…
Obama’s war really? The last time I checked it was your boys Bush Cheney and Rummy that started that one Lilyea. Invading Iraq and losing our focus in Afghanistan was the problem. Obama is trying to fix Bush’s mess!!
ObamaGirl2012 check this out, Bush launched the war, but he is out of office because he cannot serve more than an 8 year term… Obama is the current President so it is his responsibility to handle Afghanistan, and Iraq, and now Libya too! Wake up little girl
Bush caused Libya….bwahahahahahahahahah. How? Bush’s invasion of Iraq did cause Libya to get rid of their terrorist base camps in the desert and their nuclear weapons programs. Yes….but what in the name of holy hell does that have to do with Obama attacking Libya for no reason other than to stop the Col from killing his own people..which Bush did for the Iraqi’s by killing Sadamm? Please enlighten me…I need to know. Really….I’m serious Obamagirl, I can be convinced by facts.
Honor and Courage
We can all be convinced by facts, AirCav, but don’t hold your breath. ObumblerGirl will present neither fact nor informed opinion. She’s one of those who don’t know that Bush has been out of office for two years. Everything that’s happening in the world is Bush’s Fault. She got her orders from Obumbler and OFA, now it’s out to tell everyone that everything would have Hopey-Changed, but the IiC(Incompetent in Chief) was so busy getting a Stimulus, that stimulated nothing, passed, along with ObumblerCare, that won’t insure anyone, but will give out over 1000 waivers to his donors and unions. And,now there are rumblings of hidden millions of $$ in ObumblerCare to pay off his favored few.
@#7 Obama took ownership of the “victory” in Iraq. Despite trying to find a way to not lose Afghanistan AND slash the DOD budget at the same time, and causing a budgetary crisis pretty much on his own, please explain to me when he takes ownership of said war?
I keep hearing about how Bush screwed things up in a million different ways. I have yet to hear how the Democrats have NOT failed in their endeavors. Obamacare will probably be found unconstitutional and because the individual mandate doesn’t have a separation clause out the window goes the whole thing. His “international” approach to Libya has been a joke, as has his approach to Afghanistan. You can not be the COMMANDER IN CHIEF and be indecisive. You can NOT equivocate or back track. You are the figurehead for the whole of the United States, and his “humble” approach has left a lot of our allies nervous. Even on legislative issues he feels strongly about (I have yet to see real passion from him) he does not take point.
It is clear that we will be in the Stan for some time. like it or not. But we CAN do it. What’s the return on this? very little. We really haven’t gotten a return from Iraq in monetary value. But we are NOT Imperial. A lot of Liberals have a hard time understanding the concept that we will fight and die for OTHERS’ right to self determination. We did not ask reparations from Japan Germany, N Korea (and China) Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, or pretty much all of Western Europe. We ask no return on our investment of Blood and Treasure. The one time I think we have is in the Spanish American War, and even then we gave most of that back. Who cares what resources Afghanistan has? Do you expect them to pay us off for the next 30 years? What I do care about is that there are a bunch of yahoos going around and killing women and children and have been doing it since the 70’s. Can anyone seriously argue that Afghanistan hasn’t earned peace? Can anyone honestly say that is not a laudable goal? Can anyone say with a strait face they’ll have that peace if we up and leave?
She’s not here for facts. She’s here to troll. Crazy Hooah nailed the response: Obama is the President of the United States. Every war is his war until he leaves office. That’s called “taking responsibility.” It’s in the NCO Creed, last time it was recited to me. Too bad there isn’t a President’s Creed. Well, there is the oath of office.
Here’s something Army NCOs exemplify (can’t speak to the other services in terms of verbage): “I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership.”
Now, in contrast to the POTUS’s statements… well, wow. From an officer’s point of view, a leader can not fulfill the responsibilities inherent when said alleged-leader is busy whinging about who’s at fault. If one should count Libya, the economy, legislation, legal matters, Gitmo, the wars the POTUS doesn’t come across as demonstrating outstanding leadership.
ObamaGirl2012: the NCO Creed puts into words the attributes of a leader. We expect 20-somethings without benefit of a college education to demonstrate that they possess those attributes in every endeavor. No whinging. Ever. Maybe if we sent Obama to PLDC he’d figure it out.
As a non-NCO I cede the floor to an NCO (current/former/ retired).
I understand people’s frustrations with Obama’s inability to make decisions, the trueism that he crafts foreign policy like domestic legislation is absolutely true. Though I think a pull out as of now would be a disaster. Those who propose such a course of action should at least be able to propose a plausible alternative. Some thoughts.
1) Al Qaeda and the Taliban are distinct entities. Yes, but interwinted, they cannot be seperated. If they were to take back the country, Al Qaeda would almost certainly reestablish themselves, because we would have almost no access to the area. Afghanistan is not Libya, Somalia, or the Gulf, its a land locked nation, not a place we could easily carry out punative expeditions to. It would once again become a near perfect sanctuary, now sanctified by our defeat.
2) The Magic of COIN. There is a semi Myth, that really came to the for in the aftermath of the surge and the acendency of the new administartion that COIN wasn’t kinetic. It was purely about winning the allegiance of the locals through social programs, schools, not impregnanting too many of the locals, and local projects, not fighting. Basically bribery. This is false and did not happen in Iraq(That’s a larger post for another time).
3) Special Ops and Air power alone cannot succeed.
We need basing/air space to fly our drones and aircraft(I think B1 is the exception), their range is not unlimited. Who would grant that to a recently defeated US? We all know how China and Iran feel. What about Pakistan or the Stans? Or India? Why would they allow us to stir a pot, whos actions they will have to live with, but not be able to effect.
Our Special operations forces were created for unique niches, not to be used as substitutes for the line units of the USA/USMC. They are not very “effective” at such a role, to quote them. High value targetting is complimetary, not a stand alone policy.Cn only be used effectively when line units retard the enemys abiliy to mass and populations can be secured to allow intel to be collected. Only regular battalions can do this, not Seals. Deltas, or Green Berets.
4) There are four regions South, East, North, and West.
nly the South(Kandahar and Helmand) has anything that could be called a plan. Not counting Army RSTA battalions or the Marine LAV battalion there is nearly 2 divisions were of Manpower down in RC South. 8 Marine Infantry battalions, 3 Stryker, and 2 light Infantry. Depending on how you add up the Brits units, thats another 4 or 5 battalions. An American Division has 9 or 10, ie two divisions. All of our manpower has just arrivedover the last 6-9 months and we need at least 3 years to succeed. We also haven’t gone into and cleared Kandahar city yet.
The West, the largest city begin Herat, is a mystery. The Italians and Spanish are technically out there but neither has a good reputation.
The North, has a single American Infantry battalion(I think 10th Mountain). Up until recently only the Germans were up there, and there reputation is awful. Not leaving they’re FOBs and like much of the rest of Nato, risk averse. Much of the security collapse can be traced to them.
The East, I don’t think has half the battalions that the South does and has mountainous terrain is prohibitive. No operational plan has ever come into existance becasue of the constant turn over leaders at the top. we recently abandoned the Pech Valley(an maybe Kunar river valley too), which might not be a bad decision if RC East actually knew what it was going to try to hold instead. I’m worried.
Its ISAF that is primarily responsible for the regional operational campaigns, not Obama. Its they that should be held accountable for them.
5) The Afghans. Our enemies combined only have about 25,000 or so combatants, not a insurmountable number. As opposed to the opposition the Soviets face which number 250,000 armed combantants. The Taliban overran the country with about 60,000, the Shah had an Army of 100,000. Those are not large numbers, they favor us. Most people may not exactly care for us but they are not fond of the Taliban either.
We should concentrate on creating a small quality Afghan Army or security apparatus of no more then 100,000-150,000. That can roll over anyone that could contest the government’s right to rule. It need not control every inch of the country to be effective, just be able to crush anyone who opposed it, allowing it to go anywhere. This would deny our enemies a safe haven and we could cheaply subsidize it.
Cedo
P.S. Excuse the mispells must alot of my words keep getting garbled, and I’m not retyping this. Good Night.
Cedo….thank you for the energy….very informative for me.
Honor and Courage
Thanks AirCav, I hope Jim Hanson is slapping Blackfive right about now!