Author: thebesig

  • Blast from the Past – Gregory Isaac Tambone; Phony Veteran

    During last week’s “contest” for this week’s Blast From the Past, Gregory Isaac Tambone, phony veteran, competed well to be this week’s “winner”. In fact, he came over here last week on the original post Jonn did on him.

    We were so “impressed” by his efforts that his “selection” to be this week’s “winner” was unanimous.

    As a recap, he has a record involving law enforcement. He was accused of firing a weapon at someone, as well as being involved with a home invasion robbery. A woman in the same car as him was accused of wearing a stolen necklace taken during the robbery.

    But wait! There’s more!

    He was accused of raping a woman in Utah. Law enforcement arrested him in Florida, leading to a chain of events that’d get him sent back to Utah to face the music.

    In his bio, he claimed that armed men chased him in a chase that ended in a firefight outside a gas station. Well, police reports disagree with that claim. He does admit to serving prison time, but he spins it away as something that involved the government… He made a deal with the government and his prison sentence was reduced.

    He claims that he was accused of sending guys to the hospital with permanent damage, but was determined to be acting in self-defense. According to those who have seen his arrest records, he has felony convictions under his belt. If his account was anything like his gas station shootout claim, then this would be another fabrication.

    He talks about his rape accusation, and claims that a check showed that there was no evidence of a violent encounter, and that the person that accused him of rape recanted her claims. Now, if charges weren’t filed, but were later filed despite “lack of evidence”, this leaves one to ponder.

    I’m sorry, but charging him, then setting a high amount of bail, doesn’t sound like a case that “lacks of evidence”. If it remains unknown if this was a legitimate mistake on Utah’s part, then Gregory Tambone would fight these charges in court.

    He goes on to rant about there being no evidence of the crimes that he committed. Yet, he admits to being “unruly” when he was younger, and for being expelled from school. This establishes a track record of someone who would rather do what he wants to do instead of what he’s supposed to do…. Laws, and what’s customary, be damned.

    Bottom line, he’s spinning his actual run in with the law into a tall tale about the government singling him out for “persecution”, to the point that he had to leave the country and seek asylum elsewhere… Ergo, these charges are “false flags” by a government out to get him.

    Well, true to his constantly exercising poor judgement, he came back here and attempted to argue against the facts levied against him:

    Originally posted by Greg Tambone:

    Recoil magazine published that my company was veteran owned and operated (without contacting me first) because at that time I was completely “dark” with nothing in my name and my company was technically owned and operated by veterans of the US Military.

    I have never made false claims of any kind which can easily be verified with about 5 minutes of investigation. I don’t know if this post is some sort of personal vendetta or not, but I do know it’s nothing more than defamation and slander.

    When challenged to address where he felt the documentation on him was wrong, he replied with this:

    Originally posted by Greg Tambone:

    Apparently this is an entire website where people who wish they could have done something other people claim to have done expose the people making said false claims in blogs. The false claim is that I’ve ever made false claims. If you wants a compilation of facts here you go:

    The link he left lead back to his “about” page, where he tries to spin his criminal record, and talk about his other “accomplishments”. His bio page contradicts what others say about him elsewhere. His page wasn’t a compilation of facts, but spin and distortion of the facts.

    Then, when ChipNASA reminded him of what he could do if he thought that Jonn and the site had it wrong about him, Gregory Tambone argued that he wasn’t the “lawer” type. He also talked about how his life is something that we “dreamed about” while hunting for stolen valor:

    Originally posted by Greg Tambone:

    Chip, glad you are getting some enjoyment from this sir. It’s immediately apparent that you are of the keyboard warrior persuasion. Having a popular following as well as haters to boot I’m familiar with your type. The type that gets their enjoyment in life from online crap talk and instigation of people they would never confront in the real world. That being said, I am not that type, and yes my record speaks for itself. The violent felonies I’ve been charged with and then acquitted of after surviving multiple assasination attempts is the stuff that guys like you dream about while “stolen valor hunting” and trolling. Therefore I’ll end the discussion with this, I see that you’ve redacted this article to make it look less like slander. I’m not going to sue you. At the end of the day the only thing this does is drive people to my website who immediately realize that I’m the real deal and then buy some of my equipment. So thank you. Please post more hate, and make sure you spell my name right. Bone out.

    This is an example of projecting his traits to those that he talked about. The reality is that he envies us for our experiences. He claims to be a survivor of multiple attempts to assassinate him, that he had been a political prisoner, and that he is doing stuff that we fantasize about.

    Without real military experience, he doesn’t know that a lot of our experiences is pretty much mundane. That the high-speed military thriller stuff that one would see in many movies, or read about in many books, are included in the novel to add suspense and excitement.

    Gregory Tambone appears to want people to believe that he is living that “high-speed low drag” kind of life romanticized in these novels.

    He claims to have been acquitted of those felonies, but others elsewhere are claiming that he is still a felon.

    In this post, Gregory Tambone beats his chest:

    Originally posted by Greg Tambone:

    Haters come with the territory when you’re an industry leader. It’s sad to see these kind of people pushing the agenda of tyranny and supporting the stripping of individual freedoms but most know I’m not the type to sue. For every person who wants to try and drag my name down there’s a thousand supporters of the good fight. Here’s what they don’t want you to know:

    He consistently leaves a link to his bio page, showing his opinion, and spin, of the results of his consistently making poor decisions in life. It makes one wonder if “Bone Tactical” was based on a nickname that he may have had, “Bonehead”… As opposed to the apparent play on the last syllable of his last name… Thus “giving him” the “last laugh”.

    It’s easier to make one’s run in with the law and one’s convictions in court, sound like a “vendetta”… As if these charges were drummed up to destroy someone who is “going against the grain”. His, “What they don’t want you to know” remark looks like an attempt to play the “This is a conspiracy, they’re hiding things” card.

    The reality is that “they”, whoever “they” are, are more interested in the facts. “They” know that his bio page is an exercise of ego enhancement.

    On April 29, 2018, Frankie Cee nailed Gregory Tambone as someone that shifts the blame. If you’ve read his bio page, you’d see him shift the blame, instead of accepting responsibility for his acts. His conduct, on the original thread, speaks volumes about this observation:

    Originally posted by Frankie Cee:

    Gregory Tambone, is a regular “it was them, not me” kind of guy, isn’t he? He holds the gun, shoots someone, takes a plea, and it is someone else’s fault. He has a story about consensual sex, but is charged with rape. And that mother, that manic depressive mother. Dang President Trump, can’t you do an Obama and pardon the felon?

    There’s a complaint board thread on him here.

    Here’s what Jonn said:

    Someone sent us their work on this Gregory Issac Tambone fellow. He’s the owner of Bone Tactical which sells edged weapons and does security work and training. The industry thinks that Bone Tactical is a veteran-owned business;

    Mr Tambone has a past that would preclude any military service. For example he was arrested in Florida in 2005;

    Oquine Joseph, 20, was a passenger in the car that authorities say was driven by Gregory Tambone, who is accused of shooting Brent Sielaff, 24, at the Shell station in the 5300 block of U.S. 41. The home-invasion robbery happened in the 2800 block of 51st Avenue Terrace West.

    A person who saw the shooting recognized that a woman in the shooter’s car was wearing a necklace stolen during the robbery, according to sheriff’s reports. Joseph said he was with Sielaff, 18, and his friends during the robbery, authorities said.

    Ten years later, he was charged with rape in Salt Lake City;

    A bouncer at a Salt Lake City bar charged in 2016 with raping a woman has been arrested in Florida and returned to Utah.

    Gregory Tambone, 31, of Bradenton, Florida, was charged with rape, a first-degree felony, in April of 2016. He used to work as a bouncer at The Hotel, 155 W. 200 South.

    In August of 2015, a woman said “she and some friends were out celebrating at a local bar” when “she went to The Hotel bar where she met with defendant Gregory I. Tambone where he works as a bouncer,” according to charging documents.

    The two had met a month earlier and exchanged numbers, the charges state.

    “As she was leaving the bar, Tambone asked (her) if she wanted a private tour of the building before she left,” according to court documents.

    When they got to an upper level, Tambone removed the woman’s clothes “and forced her to engage in sexual intercourse with him” despite multiple pleas from the woman of “stop” and “no,” the charges state.

    An arrest warrant for Tambone was issued on April 25, 2016. His initial appearance in court in Salt Lake was scheduled for Tuesday.

    The National Personnel Records Center says “Who?”

  • Monday Musings Open Thread

    There are times when I look into the junk folder, or trash folder, to see which troll didn’t make the cut. Or, the post of someone that got deleted from the thread. As you guys have already suspected, there are people that simply don’t like us.

    For example, we had the sock puppet wannabe that acted as a “champion” for a recent Blast From The Past “winner”, who made multiple attempts to post. Using different usernames, and emails, this individual attempted to slip through the initial review. The plan was to go on to being a troll without the need for moderation.

    Reading these rejected postings is like watching someone put objects, of different shapes, into a ball with holes matching each of the objects. Then, this person grabs a star object, and consistently tries to push it through the circle hole. Having no success, this person picks up a square shaped object, and repeatedly attempts to push it through the circle hole.

    Then, they finally pick up the circle object, but attempt to push it into the star hole.

    I’m going to post the comments here, that didn’t make the cut, under the moniker “Non Compos Mentis”.

    Our first quote is from someone that’s a shining example of what an NPC is. This person is also very triggered. The mainstream media spreads propaganda, in this case, “Orange man bad!” Then they see how much of an effect their propaganda is having on their audience.

    It’s like that saying about slinging stuff to the wall, and seeing what sticks. Well, this person shows that something stuck:

    Originally posted by Non Compos Mentis 01:

    Donald Trump is a traitor and a criminal. it is amusing to watch you so called “conservatives” twist yourself into gordian knots of self delusion just to support this draft dodging, flaming garbage heap of a person.

    Yes, this next sock puppet ended up with a post in the trash. But, what you guys don’t see with this comment doesn’t take away from what you guys already know. It’s like a phony, featured here over two years ago, that claimed to be a combat wounded veteran. He liked saying, “Ass whole”, wrote in “all caps”, then used one of his sock puppets to tell his other sock puppet how this phony “showed” him a “whuppin”.

    So, here’s a phony putting himself on a pedestal:

    Originally posted by Non Compos Mentis 02:

    I personaly served with Non Compos Mentis 03 and an attest to his claims. He was a valued member of our unit and has risked life and limb to serve his country. He performed most clandestine operations for his country and risked it all more than once. I would back off if I was you because this guy was known to be a lose canon able ad ready to go off at a flicker of a chance. Just a friendly advice.

    In this next post, he removes the suck poppet and posts under his actual identity. He tries to sound like a “lawer”, attempts to insult our intelligence, attempts to come across as “educated”, etc. Like the guy above who kept saying “ass whole”, this individual talked about us being at our mother’s place.

    Originally posted by Non Compos Mentis 03:

    Marvin, sir, please desist in writing to comments on this internet website. It is below you and we will convene at a more advantegous time where we can discuss further actions in the future. These degenerates cant fathom your inteligence let along engage in meaningful conversatin. We will have our day and it is them who will be the forsaken ones and left to sit on there moms couch. Email with our plans is forthcoming to you.

    –Non Compos Mentis 03

    This guy resorted to insults, because whatever was said about him destroyed his ego, and his phony persona:

    Originally posted by Non Compos Mentis 04:

    Eat shit and die!

    Detractor, troll, or someone trying to be silly?

    Originally posted by Non Compos Mentis 05:
    I AM DAN BERNATH FROM THE PAST AND I WILL BLAST YOUR ASS.

    All this effort when all they had to do is to go by what they’ve actually accomplished. Many of these individuals have a track record that they’re not proud off. Not being accomplished after the military leaves them with a desire to amplify their military service.

    They put in the effort to build a phony persona… Instead of doing something constructive like changing the very attitude that’s causing them to keep falling short in life. After being exposed here, they prove to us why they have a track record that they’re not proud off.

  • Arnold Schwarzenegger Jabs President Trump at UN Climate Conference

    Associated Press – Arnold Schwarzenegger speaks at UN conference.

    The Associated Press reports that Arnold Schwarzenegger wished that he could go back in time in order to end fossil fuels… To get society to rely on a cleaner alternative instead.

    At least, that’s the impression that he wanted to give. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the guy that apologized for saying “girly men”, gave a speech at the U.N. climate conference. In there, he spoke against natural gas, coal, and gasoline. He also called President Trump “crazy”.

    From the Associated Press:

    If we would’ve never started in that direction and used other technology, we’d be much better off,” the actor and former California governor said Monday at the start of a U.N. climate conference in Poland.

    The biggest evil is fossil fuels: it’s coal, it’s gasoline, it’s the natural gas,” he told conference delegates.

    Mr. Schwarzenegger had the resources to make “green friendly” conversions in order to walk the walk with this philosophy.

    Schwarzenegger later told The Associated Press he has converted his signature Humvee trucks to run on hydrogen, electricity and biofuel and only allows himself to eat meat three days a week.

    He told his audience that he wished that he could go back in time and end fossil fuels, and get us to use other technologies. Lets see here…

    The fossil fuels that he dismisses happen to be the fuels that allow populations to prosper, and to stay warm in areas that get cold. Even if he got his wish…He went back in time and successfully stopped the use of fossil fuels, where would we be today?

    It requires interest, within the free market, to get these clean fuel initiatives in action. The consumers have to provide incentive for their actions with the pocketbook. If consumers are putting most of their money in fossil fuels, that is where the free market is going to concentrate most on.

    If the anti-fossil fuels crowd succeeded in limiting the use of fossil fuels, it’d be harder for populations to lift themselves up from poverty and to generate wealth. For those who have to deal with winter, there is a question of heating.

    Ironically, many would be “terminated” in this scenario.

    Then, we have the question of how seriously he would’ve been taken the further back in time he traveled. It seems that the mainstream media loves to get the opinions of actors, actresses, singers, etc., on geo-strategic, geopolitical, and geo-economic issues.

    the mainstream media did not always do this. You can read more here.

    Thanks to HMCS(FMF) ret and AW1Ed for the link.

  • Eric Swalwell Praises Leadership That Looks Like America – One Issue Though

    The Democrats like to portray themselves as “the party of diversity”. They describe the Republicans as “being” the party of the “rich old white folk”.

    During the campaign for the 2016 Presidential Election, the list of candidates told a different story. All the primary candidates on the Democrat side where white. Most of the Republican candidates were white, but they also had candidates that were not Caucasian. Both sides had a female candidate. The age spread appeared larger on the Republican side.

    You’d see which side actually came closest to having a diverse field. It turned out that the Democrats were what they accused the Republicans of being. Advance to late 2018, and what do the Democrats say?

    Eric “Duke Nukem” Swalwell posted a tweet of a photo of congressional leadership:

    “Congress is getting a leadership team that looks like America. It’s about time.” — Rep. Eric Swalwell

    Twitchy responded:

    Wow, Eric, Democrats elect a lot of old, rich, white people. Take, for example, Nancy Pelosi …

    You can read more here. New York Times has the list of 2016 Presidential Primary Candidates here.

  • Biden-Swalwell Ticket for the 2020 Presidential Election?

    Remember Representative Eric Swalwell and his “reminder” to legal gun owners? The guy that insinuates that if the government decides to take weapons away, and legal gun owners resist, they should comply instead on the account that the government has nuclear weapons.

    Eric Swalwell recently talked about his running on a ticket, with Senator Biden, in the 2020 Presidential election. He’d be happy to run as Vice President, or even as President.

    The guy that argues that people shouldn’t resist the government, because it has nukes, ponders being the guy that authorizes the launching of nuclear weapons.

    From twitchy:

    But on Thursday, Swalwell told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer that he’d happily consider sharing the ticket with Joe Biden … and he’s “open to entertaining both variations,” meaning he can see himself at the top of a ticket with Biden. Swalwell/Biden? That’s not going to happen.

    Some of the responses to that article are hilarious. You can read more here.

    Thanks to AW1Ed for the link.

  • Weekend Open Thread

    Octavio Aburto for National Geographic.

    Today’s shot is from Octavio Aburto, who took this photo for a National Geographic contest. This photo is called “David and Goliath”.

    In his own words:

    Many people say that a single image is worth a thousand words, but a single image can also represent thousands of data points and countless statistical analyses. One image, or a small series of images can tell a complicated story in a very simple way. – Octavio Aburto

    You can read more here.

    Enjoy your weekend.

  • Midweek Open Thread

    Happy Hump-day This Aint Hell!

    President Trump declared today a national day of mourning due to the passing of the late George H. W. Bush, 41st President of the U.S. I saw, from the liberal’s corner, a comment about how the late president could “roll with the punches”, even laugh at himself.

    This individual wondered why President Trump “can’t” be the same way. Going beyond the surface of that statement, this liberal was demanding one thing. That republicans take on the characteristics of the republicans that liberals like.

    Speaking of the liberal corner, time to bring you some of what snowflakes are pondering.

    One leftist believes that we tend to be “anti-science”. We “pooh-pooh” science, but are not afraid to use it, like flying in airplanes, using cell phones, benefiting from advanced medicine, etc. Then there’s that “flat earth” accusation again…

    Originally posted by PJMcK:

    Republicans don’t believe in human-caused climate change. Yet this issue will dramatically change our planet and could possibly spark an extinction event causing the deaths of hundreds of millions of people and animals.

    There are numerous other similar examples of Republicans denying things that are scientifically proven. (I doubt one could find any Progressives who believe the Earth is flat!)

    And yet, Republicans are more than willing to use science for themselves. They use cellphones and GPS devices which wouldn’t be possible if Professor Einstein hadn’t done some very specific and remarkable research and made incredible discoveries.

    What’s this? Looks like our commonly known Berkeley graduate has been going about this “all wrong”, he needs to shell out some money:

    Originally posted by get the red out:

    Originally posted by beachbum bob

    Science does not overcome ideology, simple

    Yes, or money. There has to be profit or benefit to them (and their big donors) from the science/tech in question for them to “believe“.

    Our president was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, and was raised doing bad things. Folks are still continuing to write President Trump off:

    Originally posted by linuxuser3:

    he’d have been locked up in a psych hospital by now. His administration has hit the iceberg it’s just a long sinking feeling from now on. Will he pardon himself? If Pence goes down same time Trump does they might try the Nixon-Ford 2-step: He pardons Pence first, then resigns, then Pence pardons him. Of course that would take trusting Pence *completely* so I’m gonna say no way he tries that. He’ll try to pardon himself. Will need to invest in popcorn stocks

    This individual expresses an opinion that shows us that they still don’t understand why their candidate lost the 2016 presidential election. This poster, and others on the same side of the argument, risk another snowflake moment in the aftermath of the 2020 Presidential Election if they keep this attitude up:

    Originally posted by democrank:

    Donald Trump’s presidency reminds me of my childhood. No rational person in charge, nobody running things, no rules, no guidance, no standards, no bottom lines, no reasonable explanations, no kept promises.

    This same individual demonstrates control issues with this comment:

    Originally posted by democrank:

    Trump’s presidency is like life after a tornado. You look through a hole where a wall used to be and see the neighbor’s bathtub crashed against your mailbox. Everything is upside down….nothing seems familiar and you wonder if you’re even on the right street.

    Looking forward to your thoughts.

  • Blast From The Past — Michael Killam; Phony POW

    This week’s Blast from the Past “winner” is Michael Killam, Phony POW. He did two years in the military, with a year served in Vietnam as a helicopter crewman. He maintained helicopters in order for them to be combat effective.

    This was a contribution, to the Vietnam War, that he should’ve been proud of.

    He did this at a time when more people opted for other options than to join the military… Let alone enlist in a branch of the military that provided a good likelihood of being sent to Vietnam.

    He’s a Vietnam Veteran, that title alone would garner him a lot of respect from today’s veterans, as well as from the rest of the country.

    But, that wasn’t enough for him. He had to add himself being thrown into the fray. He wanted to dazzle people with his tales of “being captured”. He bragged about other activities that he simply didn’t do.

    Now, when Jonn posted about him in December 2015, he had an opportunity to tell himself, “The gig’s up”. Then, go from there to examining what motivated him to do that in the first place… With the view of standing by what he actually did and to not embellish.

    Nope. Either he, or a sock puppet, decided to double down on the embellishment:

    Originally posted by William J. Gainey (sock puppet) on January 7, 2016:

    I would ask that we step back and think about what we are doing here. Before Michael Killam can be given an opportunity to be found innocent or guilty you have determined he he is lying scum bag. Is this the way we treat each other? I hope not.

    I will know next week the truth. The 3rd SEAC in visiting our troops in combat but has assured me he will dive into this a when he gets home Monday. I promise you I will post what I find out. I am turned off as much as the next guy when someone claims to be something they are not. All I am asking is let’s get some facts before we put this Brother against the wall and shoot him. Is that asking too much?

    I will sign off until next week. Some of these comments from folks that know the truth are really disturbing to the is old Soldier.

    Signing out for now.

    Well, he did come back the following week, January 14, 2016, but without the “truth” that he claimed he’d have. Jonn’s documentation didn’t support this “additional evidence”:

    Originally posted by William J. Gainey (sock puppet):

    LOL,

    No looking for nothing but facts on Michael Killam. I want everyone to realize I am not monitoring This site on a daily basis. I told you that the 3rd SEAC would start looking into it when he returned to OCONUS. He did, he is. I read records for over five hours today and came up with some pretty good information.

    Each of you can say what you want about me because it rumors me. Actually I enjoyed some of your comments.

    Here’s where I am at:

    Michael was assigned to the following units:

    7-15 FA
    7-13 FA (short stay)

    MOS was 67V2T with a secondary of 67VM20 after graduating from Fort Rucker.

    He was debriefed in May 1970 after either being captured or missing for three day. The video you saw of the Senator stating four months was a shock even to Michael. I did some inquires today to find out why the Senator used four months. No one could give me a solid answer. The debriefing was conducted by the 7-13 FA S-2. I am doing some more research to verify which it was. I have a former commander of the unit assisting me in this mission.

    He was wounded in his left leg but was not awarded the Purple Heart for his wound.

    A shock, but no correction made. As to the source of his information, same day:

    Originally posted by William J. Gainey (sock puppet):

    What the hell is a SOCK PUPPET? I have never heard that term but I find them interesting. The reason I can get into records is because I am blessed to have served with some great folks that still trust my intentions and have the capabilities to check these records for me. Today I simply read the information Michael had in a box that he did not think was important.

    On January 15, 2016, he “made” a commitment to not come back until he found more information, good or bad:

    Originally posted by William J. Gainey (sock puppet):

    To all of my Brothers, Sirs and Ma’mas,

    I meant NO DISRESPECT toward to tonight. I will sign off for my own good and try to get some sleep (if the demons allows it.) I hope each of you a blessed day and I will not be returning until I discover some more information. Either good or bad I will update you.

    He came back on the 17th to declare that he was no longer going to address comments on This Aint Hell. Then, he continued on to rant about the parameters of his “research” on Michael Killam’s claims.

    Well, 2 years, 10 months, and 19 days later, still no results from his investigation. Still waiting for that “earth shattering evidence”. I guess he didn’t find any additional information. You could read the commentary here.

    Here’s what Jonn said in his original post:

    Michael Killiam
    A couple of our ninjas were interested in this fellow, Michael Duane Killam, apparently, because I’ve been getting info on him from a couple of folks since last week. He came to everyone’s attention when he was in the local Dallas/Fort Worth news last month around Veterans’ Day and he was recognized by Congressman Marc Veasey for his service in Vietnam.

    Killam claims (2)
    Michael Duane Killam Phony Vietnam POW Claims to have been with the 75th Rangers, 173rd Airborne and POW

    He claimed that he was a POW (the period of capture changes from time to time from three days to four months, depending on how Killam feels) and that he was wounded, that he had two Purple Hearts, that he was in the 75th Infantry. From Kera News;

    During the first 90 days of his tour in Vietnam, Michael Killam says he felt invincible.

    “I had weapons,” he said. “I had power over life and death. I could make people live or I could let them die. I became God-like.”

    Killam was only 19 at the time. During his tour, he was captured for three days, hung upside down, and tortured for hours. Eventually, he escaped and returned to duty.

    Well, he was in Vietnam;

    Killam Vietnam 1
    Killam Vietnam 2

    Killam Vietnam 3

    He was a helicopter crewman, but with the 7th Battalion 15th Artillery, not the 75th Infantry. It looks like he was a mechanic on an OH-58 OH-6 Cayuse which would have been used for artillery observation and spotting, not in assault aircraft as he claims;

    Killam claims
    DPAA says that he wasn’t a POW either;

    image003
    He did have two years of honorable service, though, including a year in Vietnam from August 1969 – September 1970;

    Michael Duane Killam Vietnam POW Phony 2 001
    Michael Duane Killam Vietnam POW Phony 3 001

    He left the service as a Private E-2, though, so I think he probably wasn’t the best soldier, but then how many of us were?