The Army Times tells the story of Sgt. Shelby Atkins who the Army is calling the first enlisted infantryman of the female gender after she completed some 2-week course alongside her 32 male classmates designed to make infantrymen in Wyoming’s National Guard. Well, see, I dispute the fact that any of them are infantrymen. I’m pretty sure that no matter how intensive the training is, that’s not enough time to teach someone to lead infantrymen into battle, no matter what they have between their legs.
Atkins, who was a horizontal construction engineer before switching military occupational specialties, was one of at least two female soldiers who attended the infantry qualification and transition course, said Deidre Forster, a spokeswoman for the Wyoming Guard. Atkins, who has deployed to Bahrain, was the only female graduate, Forster said.
Atkins was not available for an interview.
She, along with her fellow graduates, will be assigned to C Company, 1st Battalion, 297th Infantry Regiment. This company-sized element will be the first infantry unit in the Wyoming Guard in more than 100 years; it is scheduled to be activated in July, Forster said.
The company will replace the 1041st Multi-role Bridge Company, which officials last year announced would be deactivated.
The article says that real infantry NCOs trained them – well, then why aren’t the Iraqis kicking ass against ISIS? The US troops have been training Iraqis for months and years. If I had been sent to Wyoming’s Camp Guernsey Joint Training Center to train these people, I would have found it real difficult to keep a straight face.
The only school I ever attended in the Army that was two weeks in duration was the Cadet Command School which was basically a block of instruction on how to brief the Cadet Command CG (Commanding General) when he came around to your school. Two weeks isn’t time enough to learn anything except to prepare a PowerPoint slide show – certainly not to convince people that they’re ready to be infantry NCOs and lead troops into ground combat.
So my problem isn’t that the Army is calling Sergeant Atkins an infantryman, it’s that they’re calling any of those people infantryman.
Well she looks nice and ruggedized (extra sarc).
Next will be the first EIB/CIB.
EIB happened back in 2011 to an ARNG MI Officer.
https://m.army.mil/article/54134
Yea but she’s an MI officer she can’t wear it u don’t think she can even be awarded it because she dosent have an 11 or 18 series primary MOS
To the best of my knowledge anyone completing and passing the EIB can be awarded it and have it put into their OMPF.
However, yes, you are most correct that only CMF 11s and 18s can wear it.
Apparently I got out of the Army just in the nick of time. The lowering of standards is really starting to tick me off.
The National Guard (and Reserves to some extent) have a lot of two week “transition MOS” courses that anyone needing a new MOS can take. They cover all the same training but in less time “because yo do longer days and weekends “.
In theory it is the same training. Reality is it is more a check the box get to know the subject lightly course.
Of course PLDC, I’m mean WLC, I mean BLC, was shifted to a two week course so that the Guard and Reserve programs would match and be equivalent
Ladies in Infantry is a fait accompli. We who wear (or once wore) the crossed rifles were given neither veto nor vote.
Duty now requires that those who still serve make their best effort to make the best Infantry they can possibly be, reguardless. The results will speak for themselves.
I cannot fathom what this will be like, or what will be the result. I wish them well, and Victory.
Wyoming has not had a Infantry unit in 10O yrs ? Wonder why they did not all go to Benning for school . We have We have have one hellava Infantry unit here in California the 1-184 . Know lots of guys who have transferred/reclassed to that unit and have had to go to Benning to the full Infantry AIT .
Everyone I knew in NY had to go to Benning for OSUT, too.
Money.
If 2 weeks is good enough, who does it take the AC longer?
79th IBCT; right?
No-apparently tied to a battalion in the Alaska guard. Maybe 297th Battlefield Surveillance Brigade.
Two weeks to learn how to do a Power Point show? If the PP class takes that long, the instructor should be sent outside to the grinder and made to do pushups for 6 hours as punishment. Or you could just make fun of him/her/it.
You’d be surprised at some of the students who go to these things, especially among the older folks. I’m surprised it ONLY takes two weeks for some of the, let’s call them “technologically challenged” to learn a functional level of computer literacy.
Wyoming, huh? Beautiful Camp Guernsey? BTDT while stationed at Carson.
It’s only appropriate the first infantrywoman NCO should come from there. After all, Wyoming’s nickname is the Equality State, it was the first state to give women the right to vote, the first state to elect a woman Governor, and the state that gave the world that highly feared animal of destruction and world domination, the Jackalope.
(Side Note) I lived in Wyoming for the better part of a decade, so I know what goes on over there.
Best of Luck to all involved in this endeavor.
Damn, she looks to be the twin of E8 Moerk.
Two weeks! What the fuck? How long is Ranger school for any of this douches in the picture hiding that blue cord? 3 1/2 weeks?
What the fuck is going on here? NONE of them are Infantry with a two week course!
Everybody gets a trophy I guess and gladly claims first place. I gotta go smash some shit outside right now y’all have a good day!
What you said!
Yep saw this coming, the guard and reserve have been running “retrain” courses for years. I was the NCOIC of one in Graf back in 89. It’s all legal, and all instructors must be infantry MOS. We made it as hard as we could, including 5 days in the field, 12 mile March with all gear, but you can’t replicate the Infantry School and we only had 3 weeks to do it. Hell we had E-6’s and E-7’s as students as well as privates and specialists.
Show of hands – how many of ya’ll here went to a two week NBC school?
Hate to be the downer but you’re not a 54E/54B/74?/whatever it is.
This female NCO ain’t no 11B either. She might have some fancy ASI and be able to grunt, but she ain’t one.
Me, me, me, me, meeee! says Ol’ Poe as he holds his hand up high. Fifty years I’ve been out of the Army and that’s the first time I’ve ever been asked. And yes I did become a battalion and later a brigade 54EP.
But then you know that Actual. And of course, I followed up the two-week division school with the longer course at Fort McClellan.
But your point is made: Two weeks of training don’t qualify you to perform at even minimal skill level in any MOS.
Some of the better Unit NBC NCOs I worked with were products of the 2-week class. They were 88 Mikes, 13 Bravos and so on that knew they were going back to a line platoon if they fucked up the NBC job. HQ Plt was much better in their eyes…
Working at BN level at Ft. Hood I once had a choice between a 54 or a 2-week wonder kid for one of my Companies. I chose the 2-week guy. Better attitude and he understood the personnel he’d be working with as he was one of them. Credibility with his troops established day 1.
I could have been one of your two week wonders. What earned me the longer school was that I was honor graduate of the two week school.
In twelve years of school, I had mostly A’s and B’s, a couple of C’s and a single D. Guess what I got the C’s and D in. Yup, chemistry.
Go figure…
You had a 54 at COMPANY level? In the 60’s there was one 54 per battalion, an E-6 slot in the S-3 shack.
We had about a 15 year period of popularity (1980-1995) but after Desert Storm, the USSR going away and the draw-down, the love affair quickly ended.
Such is life…
We had an E6 in our company from 92 to 95 that was our NBC guy. Every company had one.
I was a product of a two week 12B10 course taught by the North Dakota National Guard. It was enough to teach me that I needed a lot more instruction to be marginally competent. Demolition was demonstrated to us. We didn’t get to blow our own charges. It was a joke.
The Guard does these courses so the soldiers can get a new MOS during their annual training. I’m not sure why they don’t send them to the real schools, other than budgets and time.
I would never claim to be either a 54E or 54B, BUT when I went to NBC School there was no such thing, nor were there any Chemical Corps enlisted personnel either.
I would suggest nbcguy54ACTUAL, that you go back and study the period between 1973 and (according to the Chemical Corps history) 1980 (but in reality about 1982/3).
I know the history of my branch pretty good and know that for a brief period of time, there was no Chemical Corps.
My statement that the two-week course didn’t/doesn’t make you a 54 or a 74 is still valid, regardless of the timeframe.
Never said that those who graduated from the course didn’t know their biz….
Horizontal construction engineer? I’m surprised the Army Times can get away with saying such blatantly sexist things about a female soldier.
C’mon… I can’t be the only one who thought that.
TopGoz…I did kinda laugh at that job title myself. About a dozen old soldier’s jokes came to mind.
Me too! No disrespect to the young soldier, but Horizontal Construction Engineer made me chuckle. I just found a new ‘job’ for my wife. Get horizontal, show me the verticals!
BTW, I was the last TBS WO class to do the two week Reserve program, before they switched it to the mandated full WO program. They made it as hard as they could, but yea. Two weeks. The hardest part for most was land nav. In the training area, not the actual course. The Reserves still remain underfunded and under trained, but I still accomplished my deployments along with my counterparts.
back in my time, land navigation was probably the toughest part of infantry training for everyone except the gifted few who had a knack for it. That’s likely because it required more math ability than most other infantry skills.
And it’s probably still the most essential skill for any infantry leader because you can’t be effective if you don’t know where you are and how to get to your next position.
Unfortunately, it wasn’t till we got to Vietnam that my unit discovered many of our junior officers and senior NCO’s weren’t so proficient in land navigation on unfamiliar terrain. Back at Fort Campbell where they were familiar with the exercise areas, they were fine but not so much in Nam.
I would imagine land navigation is much easier nowadays with GPS technology.
I spent a fair bit of time teaching land nav to ROTC cadets, and “orienteering” in a civillian setting.
The minor item, the silver nugget, is repeatable spatial awareness as “I am -here- and i need to be up/over -there-, and this compass-thingy gives me a common reference i can use.
The key item, the gold nugget, is the moment when the student can convert a 2D map into a grasp of a 3D world, reverse that relationship, and keep both in the brain.
The topo map is a symbolic language. Some people -never- the language down.
On one memorable occasion, on active duty, i took a new 2LT who was utterly bemused by maps, drew contour lines on various parts of his hands and said “see now sir?”
Hill – knuckle on fist
Saddle, two knuckles
Draw/valley – between two fingers, near the base.
Ridge, thumb on fist, with thumb upwards.
“Now draw they lines yourself sir”
Now “see” lines over on that! (Tiefort Mountain at Ft Iwin) Now -look- at the
map.
I swear, you
could -hear- the click as it suddenly connected.
Easier, but easier to screw up, too. Knew many that were flustered once the DAGR batteries died or Blue Force was down. Map? Compass? Orient map? What are these things you speak of?
all I could do was channel Beavis and Butthead…”he said horizontal – heh heh heheh hehheh
damn, I’m sick…
An oldie but a goodie David. Your B&B made me LMAO just thinking about it.
Obama has decreed that females are just as qualified as males to serve in the Combat Arms. Army Generals concerned for their careers are pushing hard to please obama, consequences be damned. This is politically correct BS. Personally, if a soldier has not completed the Infantry Basic Course, they are NOT Infantry.
Thank you and thank you again. Yep, Obama says they are all equal. That is until these no brain, no balls Generals decide to deploy them and they start coming home in body bags at drastically higher rates than their male counterparts. Then it will be the fault of Army training and of course, the enemy’s lack of consideration and respect for our ideas of equality in the ranks. Perhaps we can offer our enemies our Power Point presentations on gender equality so they’ll get on board with our program.
Look at SGT Snowflake and tell me she could hump an eighty pound ruck. I’d wager good money that a fifty pound ruck would bust her balls, figuratively speaking of course, in a very short time under even the most favorable of weather and terrain conditions.
And that is precisely what these politically correct assholes never take into consideration: For every soldier who cannot carry his/her share, someone has to take up their slack. The more of these types you put into infantry units, the more you increase that extra burden and reduce your overall unit effectiveness.
Just remember, ability isn’t important anymore, Ash Carter says that “Embracing diversity and inclusion is critical to recruiting and retaining the force of the future”. Who gives a fuck if they can fight, it’s just a sideshow to what’s really important, diversity and inclusion.
2 weeks to become an Infantryman is a fucking joke!
However, I should point out that Jumpmaster school is 2 weeks (or was) with a pass rate of about 50%.
Two weeks eh?
Can anyone say EIB correspondence course??
That’s what’s next…
Perhaps battlefield commission?
Do they still do that???
I not only question Sgt. Shelby Atkins being a “qualified” infantryman NCO, but I also question the other soldiers being “qualified” after a two week training period.
How does a two week course completion compare to the Infantry Course at Ft. Benning?
Plain & simple is it doesn’t. Not even close to the extensive training, the intensity, and the hands on required to be considered a “grunt”.
I was in Basic at Ft. Campbell, and then was sent to Ft. McClellan for my Infantry AIT, after which I completed Jump School at Ft. Benning. This was in 1968-69.
Of all of any accomplishments in my 67 years on this earth, I am most proud of my “crossed rifles”, blue cord/discs, jump wings, and CIB.
Another thing that crossed my mind is was she required to do PT training/testing at the male requirements? If not, why? Minimum standards for all Combat MOS’s should never be compromised or dumbed down. This should hold true for Rangers, SF, Navy SEAL, Marine, etc..
I’m not pissed at her or her fellow soldiers, I’m proud of them serving when others don’t. What I’m pissed off at is how military leadership can allow this.
All right, I’m gonna play devil’s advocate here, but isn’t Infantry AIT just four extra weeks of basic training (That’s at least how one of my Drill Sergeants described it)? I’m not saying they got the same experience as they would have at Ft Benning, but I would imagine that if you cut out on all the private mind-fuck games and focus on tactics and WTBDs you could cut down the required training time a little bit.
MOS’ that do OSUT, not only are learning the same BCT crap as non-OSUT recruits, but they also start learning their MOS on day one. There is no difference between BCT and AIT in an OSUT unit. So really they did in two weeks what normally takes the full 14.
Gotcha.
In other words….. Hell No Infantry AIT isn’t “just” four weeks of extra BCT.
Not to mention life in your Infantry unit after you get assigned. This is pure fucked up pansy ass bullshit and it burns me the fuck up!!!! Did a drill sergeant even show up during those two weeks?
In Infantry training you have the same damn drill you had from day 1!
Infantry NCO???? Really! YGBFSM and GMAFB! Why don’t they just start doing it by correspondence course then for God’s sake! This whole bunch of bullshit to make countersunk Infantry “persons” is pissing me off. What the hell is Army leadership thinking and doing?
I agree that two weeks in a National Guard unit, even being trained by, “real Infantry NCOs” does not an Infantryman make.
Apply for Infantry Training, go through the real Infantry training, pass it and then be called and InfantryMAN! Screw all this gender equality bullshit!
There is honor for me in being a old “grunt” and my proudest possessions are a blue cord, crossed rifles and CIB.
Don’t fuck around with my hard earned shit by virtually giving it away for the sake of being inclusive. Sons of bitches anyway. What in hell has happened to my Army?
This mentality is going to get a lot of soldiers killed.
I was just a little OS2 in the Navy and a little 31L SGT in the NJARNG. Sometimes I am embarrassed of my service because I never “fought” for our country.
By the way Sparks, thank you for your service to our nation.
Thank you for your service as well ex-OS2. You served honorably and that is all that counts. It isn’t whether one fought, so to speak, or not. It is their willingness to serve knowing that there is danger in all aspects of military service. Training, service or combat. The point to my post was call a spade a spade and don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s rainin’. You are most correct that the end of this will be more lives lost and that is the sad state of affairs our CINC, Pentagon and the ill-informed public have come to. Have an Honored Memorial Day brother.
You as well, brother.
ex-OS2 don’t ever, EVER, apologize to anyone for your service! You took the oath. End of story!
OS2: Hold your head high, Sir. You did something 90%+ never do. In my day, men actively sought deferment via a variety of means, not all of which were legal. At least not legal at that time. Today, those who hauled to Canada/etc. are held in somewhat higher regard than they were at the time. I disagree with that, but that’s just me. Sir, if you joined voluntarily or were drafted and followed all legal orders, including what, when, where, how, yours was a successful career. By ‘career’ I mean one measured in months or decades. That’s the way I see it. Thank you for your service, Sir.
What he (and the others) said.
Thank you my friends.
As a former Active Duty and NG NCO, with CIB, I thought about replying to misinformation, but decided facts often do not matter, nor are they received.
Cheney was from Wyoming, wasn’t he? Sure would hate the guys walking a cocked-and-locked foot patrol with her. I’d make sure she led from the front.
what kinda back door fekking asscapade is this? How do they circumvent the requirements and completion of the critical skills task list for the MOS?
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but this just seems to reek of SJW smeggies.
Ntil Like it or not, good idea or not, it is a -done deal-.
We go to the next war with both bolts and nuts in the ranks. Not up for debate, no one that matters wants our opinions, suck it up buttercup.
Do we do whatever we have to do to make it work as best as we can, and try to win with what we have, or bitch/moan/sabotage and say “see? Told ya…”
We have to -win- that war, cause the next one is likely existential. So until someone decides. “Mmmm, maybe that-wasnt so smart” it has to be made to work as best as possible.
Bloody mess? Probably. But we damn well figure out how to make it work as best we can, or we are not going to have -anything- we can call infantry.
I don’t have a pup in this match, myself, but I view this the same as that ‘fitness enthusiast’ veterinarian last year who nearly collapsed on the (field combat medical) badge she was trying to qualify for, barely 50 or so feet from the finish line. Remember her?
If combat infantry training is as tough as you are making it sound, then it just seems to me this two weeks of hiking with a pack or whatever doesn’t truly pass the muster.
I’m just trying to understand the purpose in doing this. It might have been more appropriate to wait to announce this until more women had qualified and then put them all together in one group photo.
This seems to me more like a rush to say ‘Seee!!! We made it happen!!! PFFFT!’ than anything else. Just my opinion.
As someone has pointed out, funding drives most of this train. 11B in Wyoming isn’t the only MOS or state where 2 weeks gets you MOSQ. I’ve seen similar in the TXARNG.
With proper funding, RA Infantry BNCOC would be the proper course for these Soldiers, but they are stuck having to follow rules that put dollars ahead of proper training.
And how many people, male & female alike, will be injured and/or dead because of inadequate training when they need the real training?
We have a winner!
“and tell the Lady what she’s won Johnny…”
Ahem…
Task Force Smith
Why does that matter? We have an agenda to push, peoples lives are secondary to social engineering.
We still get ARNG where I teach on Bragg…I can’t imagine them trying to put on what takes us 6 month or a year depending on the course)in 2 weeks.
I understand the financial aspect though. It hits home when we have to roll guys back in training that are good, but just not good enough at the time. I’ve seen guys have to DOR just because they can’t handle the financial hardship.
The results of the inadequacy would be heeyoooge.
Will they give these instant infantrymen their own section in Arlington? I have a feeling that a good many will end up there. One great aspect to lowered standards is that it won’t take long to winnow out the weak ones. First contact with the enemy should do it.
And she’s an NCO as well, body bags get filled very quickly when NCO’s don’t do their jobs right…
I’m trying to wrap my head around why the military would go for such short training schedules at a time when we are not sending hundreds of thousands into battle. I can understand the necessity during WWII, Korea and Nam of the ’30-day-wonder’ training schedules. But now? We may be in an all-out war in the near future and how would you like to be trained by someone who only had a 2 week course and no experience? At least my appallingly short (ten days) RIP training was taught by guys who had been there, done that. OJT when your life is at stake is a peachy way to learn. The lessons will stick – if you survive.
Wyoming: where men are men and sheep run scared.
Hell, The US recruits super secret squirrel killers from video arcades and drops them into Moscow. Why is this that hard to believe. In 2 weeks you could train someone to fly the space shuttle.
Now that shit is funny! BZ!
These are reservists, right? Not full-timers, just part-time. Well, if things ramp up (spit and knock on wood), they’ll get called up, and very likely will get a refresher course that will make their hair stand on end.
I don’t think any of them have a clue what this is really about. It’s just another check-off on their ‘skill set’ list. Doing this PR thing is ridiculous.
Combat isn’t a board game or a do-one-and-run event.
Someone needs to slap the Good Idea Fairy silly. These children are dead meat on a fork if they ever go into real combat.
Gotta love the Guard.
Infantry is not a job; its a lifestyle.
Two weeks versus someone that has done it their whole life. I wonder why they did not make her available for the interview?
My bad on the report button.
And what is this holding up the cord bullshit? Its like some cult ceremony.
Not that it matters because its seems in the Guard you can wear whatever cord you want if the “CO” authorizes it.
Glad i am out.
She couldn’t do an interview because holding up the cord for photo injured her back…she had to go to the TMC to get a profile. lol
Guard MOS reclass isn’t just 2 weeks.
There’s 6-8 months of MUTA 5-6. It might be class room time or field time. The 2 week AT portion is the final phase.
And for all the intensity of the Active Duty portion, think about this: You have to work all week at your civilian job knowing that you’re going to spend your weekend doing some mentally and physically demanding training and then go back to your regular job Monday morning after a weekend of doing grunt stuff.
With that being said, my infantry training was 6 weeks after 13 weeks of boot camp.
And then I got to my unit and learn how to REALLY be infantry
That poor NCO has a nine-head…
Male Pattern Baldness.
/*runs*
😀 😀 😀