First, I’d like to give all the credit for this idea to Emily Miller of the Washington Times, for her very well-written series “Emily Gets Her Gun,” [1][2][3][4][5], (for a start), about her attempt, as a law-abiding citizen, to get a permit and a weapon in the nation’s capitol.
Like Emily, with rising violence and crime in the streets, I don’t feel safe. My neighborhood had a serial rapist that the police never caught, and I’ve witnessed three muggings in the last year, all from too far away to help even when I started running to get up. I had to break up a fight between two machete-wielding homeless guys on a train armed with…my words, not the best choice. (For future reference, apparently if you ask “Is there a problem here, gentlemen?” they think you’re a cop.)
I’m an Army veteran with an honorable record. I have numerous firearms qualifications and training. I’ve never been convicted of any crimes. I was arrested once as a juvenile for being in a park past curfew: charges were dismissed. I’ve had a few tickets for speeding, which I paid. I’m a decent shot. I know gun safety. And now, I’d like to obtain a firearm for my home and to carry with me to protect myself and my family.
Only one problem: New York City, and Mayor Bloomberg. Mayor Bloomberg has never been a fan of guns, but in the wake of the Aurora shooting he’s gotten even more nuts.
My goalposts may move, but here are my starters, which certainly don’t seem unreasonable to me:
Would like to acquire (but do not currently possess):
legal permits to have one rifle and one handgun in a NYC residence,
NYC concealed carry permit for a handgun.
rifle: M16 or something similar – it’s what I know.
handgun: 1911, widely acknowledged as the finest gun ever made.
For those who are easily amused, I’m the “token lefty” on this site. I was a precinct captain for Kerry. I have only the barest familiarity with the process of obtaining a gun in this country.
So hold onto your beer and watch this shit.
You’d have a better chance of picking up and walking off with the Freedom Tower than getting a CCW in NYC. Upstate is a bit easier, but only just.
I love it when flatlanders come up to VT (no CCW restrictions), NH, or ME (both shall-issue) and see people carrying like it’s second nature, and were it not for the fact my employer doesn’t allow weapons on site, I’d probably have my .45 in my vehicle as well.
“So hold onto your beer and watch this shit.”
Lol!! I love that line!
Also, you ain’t as lefty as you think. You’re more middle of the road and I ought to know, cuz I’m on the right with a smattering of libertarian thrown in and we see eye to eye on more stuff than we don’t.
So hold onto your beer and watch this shit.
Unfortunately, it’s about as smart as that going up against NYC authorities. Then again, this is from the same “leadership” who thought it would be a great idea to jack up taxes on beer and smokes so high a pint of domestic swill costs $7, and a pack of Marlboros at any given bodega on Manhattan costs $13-14.
Of course, law of unintended consequences being what it is, Bloomy is likely blissfully unaware of the black market smokes being brought up from states like VA, NC, and SC, put a phony NYC tax stamp on it, and pocket the difference, or forward the proceeds to various unsavory groups.
Apparently, gun laws in NY are dependent on the county in which you reside, so I’d call the local sheriff’s office for information. I know that just getting a permit for a handgun takes like 6 months, so I’m guessing that getting a CCW permit takes even longer. As far as a long gun, I did buy a few rifles and shotguns at Walmart in Jefferson County (Fort Drum) and all it took was a driver’s license and the requisite background check. I’m pretty sure that the waiting period is in effect in NY (although it wasn’t when I lived there about 1997). High Standard (a Texas company) makes an affordable AR-15 clone. I bought their M4 version for a little over $700 at a gun show here last Spring. 5.56 ammo is another problem though. I’ve had an ammo can of 5.56 on back order at Brownells for three or four months because I’m holding out for bullets on stripper clips. I know some folks who sell ammo online won’t ship to NY.
When Minnesota had legislation on the floor to make Minnesota a “shall issue” state, a co-worker and anti-gunner was all whipped up in the hyperbolemobile and stated that it was going to be like the old West and there would be shootouts in the streets, etc. I asked; like they already do in North Minneapolis on a weekly basis? At the time, I didn’t own any guns (long story, but suffice it to say that’s another reason why she’s my ex), but as I told him at the time “you and I don’t have the right to tell a woman, who has been abused, mugged, raped, etc. that she doesn’t have the right to carry a gun if she so chooses for her personal protection”. He didn’t like that and said that he doesn’t want anyone around him that’s carrying a gun. I asked him why? He said it was too dangerous. I asked him why it was too dangerous? He never gave me a logical answer, just an emotional one. Now, Minnesota has passed the 100,000 mark in carry permit holders. Just 3 1/2 years ago it was around 60,000 and a year before that it was around 30,000. Now, there have only been 2 incidents where a carry permit holder got into trouble with a firearm, that I know of. That’s remarkable considering we are talking about 10 years and now 100,000 people.
Yeah, I recognize that this might be a slow and laborious process – but it’s absolutely ridiculous, and it sure shouldn’t be. We’ll see how this goes. If they’re at all reasonable, I’m the last person they should deny. But that might be a pretty big if.
Jonn, I had no idea you used to live in NY! Were you stationed at Drum, or what?
I grew up in Wayne County, lived in Syracuse before I joined the Army and then retired at FT Drum, finished college at SUNY Oswego and moved to Jefferson County with my financial planning business and then after the 1st heart attack came to DC in time for the 2d.
I’ve lived in NY (Long Island) all my life. I owned a bait/tackle and hunting and police equipment store that my five children grew up in for 13 years….and none of the them has “gone postal” yet. One was with 5th Group and another 19th SFG.
I retired from a LI county police department some years back and with my education as a business owner I was “enlightened” as to the bureaucratic BS involved with obtaining a pistol permit – the vast majority are classified as “hunting and target” which comes with restrictions bordering on the absurd. A “full carry” license is generally limited to persons previously victimized by violent robbery (an oxymoron), a business owner that makes large cash deposits or an attorney that has connections.
NYC take 12 months to approve a target hunting permit, while Nassau and Suffolk counties take 6 months – (they’re the two counties east of NYC)….not sure about Westchester county to the north, but I believe it’s the same.
As Jonn pointed out – residing in another NY county or town completely changes the entire process – – maybe 10 days, two weeks or a month to receive your permit. Why is that?
The applications are basically the same as are the background checks….it’s the will or desire to approve another “nut” with a handgun.
IMHO, this is how liberal states legislate impediments to the Second Amendment and this is how they’ll control and/or take our weapons away.
(1)legal permits to have one rifle and one handgun in a NYC residence,
(2)NYC concealed carry permit for a handgun.
(3)rifle: M16 or something similar – it’s what I know.
(4)handgun: 1911, widely acknowledged as the finest gun ever made.
You might get (1). You will NOT get (2). The only way to get that is to be rich, famous, and know the mayor. The list of people who have them is very interesting and small.
(3)Not in NYC you won’t. You COULD own a “pre-ban” rifle or “ban compliant” AR-15 (lol) in OTHER parts of NY, but not in NYC. A buddy of mine was NYPD and owned ban-compliant AR-15s…and had to keep them all at his family’s summer house. Not allowed to have them in the city. Oh, and you couldn’t have standard magazines for it anyway.
(4)You can have that. Enjoy your ridiculous wait and expense.
NYC gun laws are all jacked up. I hope you post the whole journey. As a VA resident, it’s always fun to laugh at NYC.
Ar-15/M4 Illegal in NYC 5 boroughs (Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island Manhattan an da Bronx)in all forms. Thank Mayor Dinkins for that
“1911, widely acknowledged as the finest gun ever made”
Do some research on brands from guys like Hilton Yam. Hint – Kimber is not well thought of by knowledgeable folks.
I do not wish to sound like a criminal but you guys are nuts to purchase registered, legal weapons. Especially in this day and age.
Go to flea markets.
I lived in NYC back in the mid-90’s. Procedure at that time for getting a ‘range’ or ‘home defense’ permit was to turn in all the paperwork along with info (SN, make, model, caliber) of firearm you want on permit.
Once approved, you had 2 or 3 days to purchase said firearm. Then you had to take to the Firearms Permit folk at One Police Plaza so they could verify that you had X firearm in Y caliber with xxxxx serial number.
It wasn’t as simple as ‘that’s a nice looking pistol, I can afford that’. It was ‘that’s a nice looking pistol, I’d like to buy that, but first I have to put in the paperwork and if it’s approved, I’ll buy that from you in 6 months or so’.
Then there’s the whole ‘home defense’ and ‘target shooting’ permits…but my info is very dated so there may have been changes since then.
But on the flip side, that was pre-NICs. Bought a beautiful No4 MkII from a shop on LI for about $40.
I started a simular set of blog posts for my California CCW application process. It turned out to be fairly boring, and conisted of “wait…go to appointment A, turn in paperwork b, wait…wait…wait somemore…go to appouintment c, take class d, turn in paperwork e….wait…wait…pick up ccw”.
My cause statement was “Self defense”. Went through without a hitch.
It really was far easier than I had anticipated:
My timeline:
9FEB12 – Downloaded and filled out the application (CA DOJ) from the Sheriff’s Web page. Called and scheduled my first appointment for 5MAR12.
5MAR12 – Went to the first appointment, finger printed, scanned, paid my fees.
19APR12 – Contacted by Sheriff’s staff to schedule second interview for 23APR12
23APR12 – Completed second interview and weapon inspection
29APR12 – Completed training
3MAY12 – Drop off completed certification and pick up CCW
According to that schedule it was 84 days between the day I filled out the application and the day I was issued my CCW. It was 59 days from the first interview (and application drop off) until the pickup.
Costs:
$125 processing fee
$265 Training fee (base fee + fee for three weapons)
$7 Range fee
$100 for ammo for three weapons (.45, .40, 9mm)
$50 fuel (travel to and from interviews, range, classes, etc)
Total: $547
Priceless: Having a CA CCW
“According to that schedule it was 84 days between the day I filled out the application and the day I was issued my CCW.”
lol, California.
When I lived in PA that same timeline looked like this (dates are made up but close).
10:00 AM on 05AUG2003:Enter Luzerne Co Courthouse to apply for CCW Permit
10:20 AM on 05AUG2003: Leave Luzerne Co Courthouse with CCW Permit
I am frankly bewildered at what some of you have posted, as far as the time and expenses incurred for your weapons and licensure.
I think we must be purely spoiled in Montana.
SGT Kane, if I may, which county was that? Cause I can tell ya, even Orange County is pretty damned stingy when it comes to CCW’s (barely 1000 in a county of nearly 3 million.) CA as a whole has less than 40,000 CCW permit holders in a state of nearly 40 million, a 1 out of 1000 rate? Pretty friggin sad.
http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/counties/countiesmap.html
Just loose some weight and take a self-defense class…or get a crossbow. Reasonably sure both are legal.
#15, My NC CCW is good in PA, so cut that timeframe by about 16 minutes. Tioga County Sheriff’s saved me about 20 bucks too. 🙂 And i’m not even a resident of NC or PA!
@18: I don’t know if you’re serious or sarcastic with your statement.
Good luck on that.
There are lawyers who make a pretty good living getting people carry permits in NYC. If you are really more interested in having the permit than writing about the absurdity of the process you might consider that route, as expensive as it will be.
Spade–mine was pretty close. By law in NH, the police chief for the town in which you reside has 14 days to either tell you to come pick it up or give you a legal reason for denial (criminal, etc.)
I think I dropped off my application and had my prints taken in 15 minutes for my initial issue in 2007, and 3 days later they called me to come pick it up. The 2011 renewal was same day.
This is the most comprehensive by-state list I could get for the number of CCW holders.
Frankly, I’m surprised that the number in NH (just under 7000 in a state of 1.3 million, or 1 in 200) is as low as it is.
http://news.511tactical.com/2012/07/number-of-ccw-licenses-in-each-state/
And just for the heck of it, I clicked on the link for what they base my state’s numbers on. The 6830 they cite is NON-RESIDENT CCW’s, meaning the number of resident CCW holders is certainly MUCH higher.
Army Sergeant, there are many, many better choices than a 1911 for a beginner out there. Who ever is giving you gun advice isn’t doing you any favors.
I’ve carried 1911s in the Army, and as a cop for UC work, patrol, and SWAT. I own two 1911s now, and love them. They are awesome pistols…but I don’t carry them on or off duty now…there are simply too many better fighting handguns out there. I am a “1911 guy” a 1911 is the last thing I would recommend for a beginner. There are too many lighter, simpler, cheaper and easier to use choices out there with better sights and magazine capacity for me to suggest a 1911 to a novice.
I’ve taught a lot of first timers both to shoot and carry, and trust me when I tell you, a 1911 is not going to serve your needs well.
@16: Isn’t Montana the only state to produce its own home-grown machineguns that never leave the state so they don’t have to be regulated? I am jealous.
@18: Oy. That is the stereotypical liberal attitude towards guns, isn’t it? Well, I hope you’re kidding, but if not, I do take Krav Maga, but that certainly doesn’t eliminate my wish to exercise my Second Amendment rights.
@21: A combination of both. I really do want the permit- but I also want to write about the process, for anti-gun zealots that insist that the process is perfectly simple and legitimate. Often the same ones who insist there should be no voting ID requirements.
@25: I’m not precisely a beginner – I’ve shot handguns before, though never a 1911. I’m willing to take recommendations, though! What would you say is a better “fighting handgun”?
There is no motivator strong enough to live in NYC. Simply put – move.
NHSparky I’m in El Dorado county. I started my process after the big law suit against Sac county and elected a new sheriff that said he’d do everything in his power to streamline the application process to avoid a similar suit from happening here.
And Spade and PintoNag, it used to be “Pay the fee, wait six months, get denied, pay an another fee to appeal, wait a year, get denied again, pay an attorney sue, and wait five years, or marry the sheriff’s daughter…
Army Sergeant, I have a full sized 1911 that I love to shoot, but have issues with carrying it concealed. Its just too bulky. I’ve tried the smaller 1911 frames, and don’t enjoy shooting them as much. Too snappy on the recoil and I realized that when I dreaded picking up a weapon I just wasn’t going to practice with it.
So I have a glock 23, .40 compact that is my daily carry. Its not bad, its not my favorite, but I can shoot it and shoot well with it.
I also have a drop in Lonewolf barrel that turns it into a 9mm. I don’t carry in that configuration, but it keeps the training and ammo costs down.
If I had the scratch though, it would be an FN 5-7. That weapon is amazingly fun to shoot, and while its only using a 5.7x28mm round the ergos and lack of recoil let me feel confident enough that I could manage multiple rounds on sensitive areas under almost any situation. Or as my son puts it “Headshots, headshots for everyone!”
This works:
1. Buy a country house in upstate New York.
2. Transport your weapons to local county Sheriff’s Office for safe keeping.
3. Cancel your NYC Pistol Target Permit.
4. Introduce yourself to the Republican Sheriff (many Sheriff’s in NY are of that party).
5. Apply for UNRESTRICTED LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL through the office of your new friend … the Sheriff.
6. Recieve said UNRESTRICTED LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL.
7. Using your UNRESTRICTED LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL issued by NYS, apply for UNRESTRICTED LICENSE TO CARRY PISTOL in NYC.
A conservative budget of about 18 months and $750.00 (not including purchase of upstate country home) is about right.
AS: I can’t swear to machine guns, but we do produce our own weaponry. I can’t do a thing on here with links, but here are some things to Google at your leisure:
The Firearms Freedom Act of Montana
Cooper Firearms of Montana
Montana Shooting Sports Association (MSSA) – sponsor of the Firearms Act.
SGTKane: I’m a small frame female with a 1911 .45. I’ve never found a way to carry it concealed on my person, except for one. I have a reinforced black leather “Bible case”, with a built-in holster and mag pouch. It’s not good for all situations, but from the house to the car and back, and in some public situations, you can carry and no one gives you a second glance. I also have a police woman’s purse with a concealed weapon pocket that I use from time to time. A man might look around for a laptop case with a concealed pouch, or something like that. Again, not good for every situation, but at least it gives you the option to carry that weapon if you want to.
Colorado was a patchwork of gun laws until 2003 and Governor Owens. We got a law passed that said that state law overrode any municipality law. Before that, Denver, Aurora, Lakewood, etc. all had a myriad of bans. In 2007, a law was passed preventing sheriffs from entering CCW holders in a criminal database as ‘persons of interest’.
The CCW process does vary by county, but this is the general process (from Rocky Mountain Gun Owners – http://www.rmgo.org):
You must have proof of some form of firearms safety training within the last 10 years. Though Rocky Mountain Gun Owners fought against this provision (do you need government-mandated training to practice your First Amendment rights?), this is nevertheless the law.
If you need firearms safety training, you can take a course through RMGO.
Download, print, and fill out the Concealed Handgun Permit (that’s what it’s actually called) application from your county of residence here. If it’s not available online, call your county sheriff (Denver residents call the Denver Police Department) and ask for it. In some cases they may require you to pick it up in person.
Acquire $152.50 ($100 to your local Sheriff and $52.50 to the Colorado Bureau of Investigation). Most sheriffs will accept a check, but CBI requires the $52.50 in certified funds. Take that completed application, and your fees, to your sheriff’s office.
Note: in some cases (where sheriffs have completely forgotten who votes them in and who pays their salary, such as Arapahoe County) sheriffs require you to schedule turning the application in. As ludicrous as that might sound, be aware of it — it’s a bureaucratic nightmare and can delay your permit.
When turning your application in and paying the fees, your sheriff department will take your fingerprints (yes, just like a common criminal).
Now your job is to wait. They have 90 days to issue or deny, but some sheriffs have pushed this far beyond the legal limit (again, Arapahoe County Sheriff Grayson Robinson is the main culprit).
Sheriffs claim they are waiting for the results of the fingerprint check. However, state law addresses that (and tells them they only have 90 days).
Assuming you passed the background check, your permit should be available to be picked up.
My son wants to do this for his 21st birthday (in about 18 months) and I agreed to do it with him, a mother/son activity. I’ve never been interested in firearms in the past, despite the men around me, just wasn’t my thing. But my son’s interest has peaked mine and I thought it would be fun.
I find it ironic that my son could buy an M4 when he was 18 but has to wait until age 21 for a pistol. Pretty stupid.
@26: No, Montana doesn’t allow machine guns. It specifically exempts weapons which fire “two or more bullets” with a single trigger press, as well as any bore larger than 1.5″ and any weapon not employable by a single person.
…Would be nice, though. 🙂
You are NOT gonna get a “concealed” carry permit. You will be lucky to get a “target” permit after spending a lot of money with NO guarantee you will get a permit to own.
NO machine guns, period. An AR-15 type rifle? Possible. NO naughty “High Capacity” magazines though, I think.
“What would you say is a better “fighting handgun”?”
I’m sort of a “Newb” to this as I’ve only been shooting handguns since 1976, and until 2004 or so 1911s. So take what I say with a grain of salt (as with anything on the ‘net).
Glock 19 is probably the best balance of size, ammo capacity and cost, especially as your add ons are steep. Go with a good JHP (Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, 124 grain goodness) and concentrate on Marksmanship, Weapons Manipulation, Tactics and Mindset. Caliber is just a null subject in today’s world of excellent Jacketed Hollow Point bullets. 9mm, 10mm Short (.40 is a 10mm with a shortened case) or 11.5mm (.45 ACP) all works well with good bullets put in the right place (above the diaphragm, below the throat, between the nipples (nibbles).
Al T. gives good advice. I would recommend a G19 or G17. I have heard very good things about the S&W M&P9, also, but I haven’t played with one.
I can take a Glock, any Glock out of the box, load it with just about any ammo, and go to work. They just work, period. I can bury it in the mud, drag it through the sand, drop it off a roof, and it’s gonna keep ticking. Ammo capacity, accuracy, ease of use…no complaints on anything. I can buy accessories for them any damn place, resale value is good if I want to get rid of one, and again, they just work.
The ammo recommendations AL T. made are spot on.
#34 One thing I would add to this is shoot the Glock first. A couple of friends and I can’t stand how they shoot, something about the balance and recoil in my case. Then again, I use the Springfield XD and it took more than a few notes from Glock. Damn good pistol though.
I love glocks, which is the reason I went with the 23. Not as in love with the .40 round, but eh. I had a Glock 19 before my 1911. As The Dead Man says though, try it. Rent one, borrow one, do something to try before you buy though. The Glock’s ergo’s are either something you like, or something you can tolerate.
It took me a long while to get used to the 1911’s ergos, to the point I was blaming the weapon for my craptacular shooting with it. Took a pistol carbine course and the instructor corrected a few things with my grip and got me back on track.
I carry a 1911, never had any problems with it. I practice as often as I can and use a low profile jak slide holster and low pro mag carriers, so the bulkiness has never been an issue for me. I also have a .357sig 229, a bit smaller than a 1911,but very comfortable to shoot, and recoil management is a breeze for a pistol of it’s size. Plus if I want a .40, all I have to do is swap out the barrel.
Since we are on the subject:
My wife and I are stationed in Okinawa currently. We have a year and a half left and then we return to the States.
We are residents of the best state ever..Arkansas.
And are in the process of saving up for our second and third pistol. (We currently only have one, a little French Unique Pocket Pistol, .25 ACP)
Anyone know how hard it is to get a CCW in Arkansas, and what states it allows us to carry in?
And since there is a chance of getting stationed in California, should I just go ahead and apply for one there?
Usually a state will list other states that have reciprocity with their respective CCH. Packing.org used to be a good site that listed them but I havent been able to get to it for a long time, it may be defunct now. Your best bet is to check with the state, and definetly apply for one in California if you’re heading there.
Thanks. I found a site that said that California didn’t have any reciprocity with any other state.
Army Sergeant- Maybe you could find people (here, at a range, or on another website) that would allow you to get target time with different makes, models, and calibers of self defense guns? It’d probably be better to find what fits you before spending all that time, effort, and money on something that is uncomfortable when concealed or a model that you can’t use well in a pinch. You’ll have to deal with the licensing shit all over again if you want to purchase another (legal in NYC) handgun, and the $10 state fee limits for adding firearms to your handgun permit do not apply in NYC. The city council sets those fees. I don’t know what they are, but you can be damn sure it’s a tidy sum.
Jonn- upstate NY dealers have now been forced to run background checks on people purchasing rifles and shotguns, but it’s just a matter of the salesman calling a database number and getting verification that you’re not in the system. Wait time is about 5 minutes on a good day. Still no requirement to register them (except in NYC) though.
As far as the ammunition, most Walmarts here will sell pistol caliber ammunition only to those who have a valid pistol permit, unless they deem it to be a popular carbine or rifle cartridge (9mm and .45ACP qualify as carbine rounds at Walmart, but .40S&W .357 and .44spl/.44mag do not). It’s legal to buy ammunition online here, but I imagine it’s such a fucking headache to buy anything else that some companies probably don’t want to deal with the possible legal troubles they could get into for selling anything at all to NY residents.
TTM, yeah, the People’s Republic of New York is the same way.
I’ve shot a variety of handguns and when I went to purchase one for my wife before going to A’stan I bought a S&W M&P in 9mm. She likes it and so do I. One of the easiest pistols to learn with and clean/maintain. For reference here is a list of my current/former handguns.
Glock 27 S/C .40
Beretta PX4 .40
S&W M&P 9mm
Ruger LCP .38
Sig Sauer P238 .380
Remington 1911 .45
Kimber Super Carry .45
I don’t have the Ruger or Glock anymore but I wouldn’t hesitate to purchase a Glock again. I only got rid of it because I didn’t like the S/C version.