So if you didn’t already know the person in the picture above, would you think he’s an iraq veteran? It’s Matthis, by the way, at the UXO concert. Photo is courtesy of Bill Perry. He doesn’t act like the crowning glory of his military career was occupying the corner booth at Baskin-Robbins on Bagram Airbase for six days.
Well, anyway, the following exchange took place on Facebook between all of the great thinkers of IVAW past and present. carl Webb, Dahlia Wasfi, Carl Webb and Bobby Whittenberg. The discussion of course was over whether they should support killing US soldiers to satisfy their own bloodlust for the cause.
The discussion begins with Matthis criticizing some soldier on Facebook for wishing some diplomatic solution hadn’t been arrived at in some corner of the war so hat soldier could resolve the problem with force. Of course, matthis and Branum jump on it as an example of the evils of the American fighting man. Carl Webb on the other hand, whines that he was uninvited from the IVAW convention because of racism, to which Dahlia Wasfi, race pimp that she is, agrees. Hart Viges, to his credit, explains to Carl, once again, that it was his extremist views that got him kicked out of IVAW. And that’s where we pick up the conversation;
See Bobby Whittenberg expressing the same extremist and violent views that Carl Webb espoused last year? Yeah, that’s the guy that I dressed down (ex-) Army Sergeant for convincing him to stay in IVAW when he threatened to quit because they weren’t extreme enough for his taste.
The only reason I’ve gone easy on Whittenberg is because he did earn a Purple Heart and because there is obviously something wrong with him (and no one in IVAW or VFP is telling him he needs help) and he’s being used by the rat fucks in Austin to play to the radical crowd there. The best thing IVAW could do for Bobby is cut him loose and get him some help – but the best thing for IVAW is to keep putting him in the front lines to act like he’s insane for the cameras – which they will continue to do until someone gets hurt.
I have screen shots of the rest of the conversation, I just didn’t feel like uploading them all, but I will if a participant wants to dispute the conversation.
Why does Carl think that paratroopers shout “Geronimo” during a jump? More proof of how uneducated and blinded these people are. Reality is that paratroopers are supposed to be completely silent during a jump. In airborne school they threatened to recycle anyone who yelled at the jump.
Bobby “Mavi Marmara” Whittenberg? (aka The Hate Boat) Too bad Bobby doesn’t realize the occupants on that ship have more in common with the people who wounded him than himself. If he met them in a dark alley, the Mava Marmara activists would probably try to finish the job their jihadist brothers started. Useful idiot.
Is that “braintrust” or “brainfart”?
If it’s “braintrust”, then the trust fund is showing zero balance. Or is that zero UNbalanced?
Lets start from the top down of this posting…
Yet another IVAW member wearing a shirt that says “Iraq Veteran” when is not one. Also, I know it’s easy to take cheap shots at him and call him a druggie and whatnot, but damn, he really looks strung out. He’s hitting something not good for him and often. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll never feel sorry for a rapist.
Hart Viges is a good dude and I know him personally. He is an actual Iraq Vet and while we do not see eye to eye on things he isn’t the type to discard a friendship because you don’t agree with him on a religious or ideological view.
Then jumps in Carl Webb and he has to make it all about him. Plus, this attitude of “fighter” that he tries to sell to people is such a a crock of shit. I’ve said this before, I will say it again: He is the Starscream of the anti-war movement. He talks a big game, but if ever had to face a real fight he’d fold and run away. Furthermore he talks about things as if he has all the facts. Above CPT Me stated that what he said about yelling “Geronimo” was false.
Well, I’m not even sure who CPT Me is, but as far as I know Carl never went to any Airborne training school. Hell, I really don’t know much about Airborne training except they jump out of planes and are in love with themselves on a Casey J Porter level. hahaha Why anyone, to include Bobby, would stand with this guy is beyond me. Maybe he just feels that Carl is being crucified for his views when really Carl is the master of his own destruction.
Bobby. Well, Bobby has called me all kinds of things: Racist, Xenophobe, and a long list of other insults. It would easy to strike back at him and call him a liberal, coward, traitor, etc etc. But I was called those things when I was making my films from Iraq and I didn’t like it much. So I won’t be him calling any names or labels. This isn’t just because he’s an actual Iraq Vet, but when I see him doing interviews and such you can clearly tell he’s going through a lot and it just would not sit right with me to dig at him. I do wish however he would have taken the time to understand me, or at least not give the a-typical anti-war reaction to things that do not line up with his view point. My probably with Carl has nothing to do with his race. I have never hinted, eluded, or directly made any comments about race. I simply do not factor that into my thought process when dealing with Webb. I’m not going to post some cliche about being color blind. It’s clear Webb looks different than me. I’m just better looking. Do I think Bobby will do something violent one day? I don’t think so and I certainly would hope not. I feel that if anything he would burn himself out. For his beliefs I am surprised he stays with IVAW. First, the anti-war movement uses people like Bobby all the time. I wish he would see that and understand he can still fight for what he believes in without having to work with those people. You see, when you have a Vet like Bobby who is a Purple Heart honoree and against the war you can use him at fundraisers and events to raise even more money. Now lets say you are an event organizer like Doug Zachary who takes 10% of what is brought in as payment for putting the event together; you will make more money. Money in this model creates a massive conflict of interest. Why ask someone like Bobby, or any other suffering Vet, to get help and work your problems out, get better, than pick up the fight again? Your wouldn’t because he’s your “cash cow”. Furthermore IVAW is massively wasteful with it’s money and financial corrupt. Why Bobby has not left over that alone eludes me. My only hope is that Bobby gets better and while not everyone in the anti-war movement is evil, I hope he sees some of those people for who they are.
“I was surrounded by strangers I thought where my friends.”
But it seems with the “movement” that race is the go to point if you do not agree with them. If you deny being a racist you are too brainwashed or too stupid to know yourself. True, there is veiled racism for sure. But I hate how condescending these people are. I guess I’m just too stupid to know myself or my own actions. Oh wait, I’m not.
As far as Dahlia Wasfi goes, she’s had a problem with my film work from the get go. She labeled them as glorifying war and as being racist. I reached out to her while deployed because I found out she had direct family in Iraq. I tried to talk to her, but her mind was just to closed. If she really cared about her family, she’d be fighting with them instead of staying safe on the other sided of the World and complaining about other people. As far as her completely missing the point of my film work, well, I don’t make films for stupid people.
Carl and Bobby also discuss whether or not Carl was the first “black” member of IVAW, which I found hilarious.
Why the selective editing? Here’s the discussion as of 13 minutes ago:
Matthis Chiroux Soldiers in Iraq post the damnest things things on Facebook. The latest from the front: “It looks like they’ll be resolving the incident
diplomatically… lame, I wanted to fight. Haha.”
Monday at 9:41am · Comment · LikeUnlike
Martha Sullivan
All testosteroned up and nowhere to go …
Monday at 9:57am · LikeUnlike
Tone Penley
surely you challenged him?
Monday at 10:08am · LikeUnlike
Hart Viges
Well if the HaHa was in the quotations, I feel he was being sarcastic. And thats a good thing.
Monday at 11:23am · LikeUnlike
Tone Penley
either way, i do not find it to be funny.
Monday at 11:40am · LikeUnlike
Matthis Chiroux
Homeslice, a guy I know from High School, is definitely not kidding. We’d be kidding ourselves to think Soldiers don’t want to fight while downrange. Bloodlust is a powerful antidote for fear.
Monday at 1:08pm · LikeUnlike
James M. Branum
Important to remember that not all soldiers feel this way. Many sadly do, but I think many more don’t.
Monday at 1:45pm · LikeUnlike
Tone Penley
when i was in somalia…i remember seeing all the guys eager to go out and maybe have a shot at killing someone…and we were not even in combat!!!
Monday at 1:56pm · LikeUnlike
Matthis Chiroux
The same attitude was evident with the Soldier begging to shoot in the Wikileaks video, however likely not with the brave troop who had the courage to leak the footage and is now in military custody. Certainly it is not this way with all Soldiers, however this ultra-macho lustful killer persona is the dominant hegemonic ideal of masculinity in the military, or at least the one I experienced. It certainly lends itself to wars of imperial aggression.
Monday at 2:58pm · LikeUnlike
Tone Penley
perhaps they will one day learn they are destroying freedom and not defending it as they think they are. maybe then, they will leave their posts and take on more productive ways of earning a living.
Monday at 3:28pm · LikeUnlike
Dahlia Wasfi
Big picture….get the f#@! out of Iraq. Seriously, 7+ years in Iraq, 8+ years in Afghanistan. Matthis, please tell Homeslice that if he wants a fight, I’m waiting for him here. That’s a standing invitation. 🙂
Monday at 6:11pm · LikeUnlike ·
James M. Branum
” Certainly it is not this way with all Soldiers, however this ultra-macho lustful killer persona is the dominant hegemonic ideal of masculinity in the military” – So true. Glad you articulated this because it is so critical to destroying the war machines once and for all.
Funny timing you saying this, because one of my clients was asked by his drill sergeant “So what’s your answer? Are you going to man up and do what you promised by deploying to Afghanistan?”
So proud of my client, because he said, “with all due respect, no, I don’t believe in this war and I just want to get out of the Army.”
My question is, who really “manned” up here?
Monday at 6:17pm · LikeUnlike
James M. Branum
of course, I’m playing with this saying… not saying that courage to buck authority is only a masculine trait.
Monday at 6:18pm · LikeUnlike · 1 person
Tone Penley
7 and 8 years there, hell, look at japan and korea!
Monday at 9:30pm · LikeUnlike
Dahlia Wasfi
@Tone, that’s true. And over my dead body will U.S. troops remain in Iraq and Afghanistan that long. Occupying forces have internet in Iraq while the people don’t have water?…it’s disgusting. I reject that overseas deployment is normal. With much respect to Hart, there is no bright side to what this guy illegally occupying Iraq had to say. With much respect to James, it really doesn’t make much of a difference to the dead whether their murderers feel bad about killing them or not. It’s not just the testosterone…it’s the racism we’ve been raised on since birth.
Tuesday at 11:52am · LikeUnlike ·
Carl Webb
I agree with Dahlia. I guess that’s why I got an email from Jose telling me IVAW is going to REFUND my registration fee for the conference they’re having at the Black college in East Austin where I live.
Tuesday at 5:32pm · LikeUnlike
Matthis Chiroux
That doesn’t seem legit, Carl. I wasn’t even on the call when they voted to police you out as I was actually resisting war by doing a sit in and getting arrested at obama’s west point speech announcing his afghan troop surge (couldn’t believe they chose to have that dumb ass call at the same historic moment in time. Telling of a broader problem, if you ask me). But what I recall from after the fact is that they voted to revoke your membership, but not ban you from the org. Porter got the lifetime ban. As far as I can tell, there is no reason you should not be able to attend the convention as an ally or even reapply for membership, if you wanted to. I’m going to get clarity from Jose on his justification for this. Certainly, I had no oversight or knowledge of the decision as a board member. Beyond that, it does seem pretty twisted to tell a black veteran to steer clear from a black campus so a primarily white organization can continue masquerading around as champions of the under-priviledged. Sick.
Yesterday at 9:58am · LikeUnlike
Bobby Mavi Marmara Whittenberg
@Dahlia: I’m with you. No excuses.
@Carl: I wish I was as surprised as I am disgusted. Weren’t you always IVAW’s first African-American member?
Yesterday at 2:52pm · LikeUnlike
Carl Webb
I don’t know if I was the first Black member. But I think I’m the first Black member to get kicked out for supporting Arab and Afghan self-determination. They expressed some concern about the politics of my website when I joined in 2005. But it really didn’t bother them until I found out what happened to Dahlia when Margaret sent out her letter of resignation and I went crazy! Not only can’t a Black American man stand for self-determination. But they didn’t even want an Arab American woman to stand up for her OWN people! They told me I’d scare people away. But I guess they not concerned about scaring away Arabs and Blacks.
Yesterday at 5:51pm · LikeUnlike
Carl Webb
IVAW refunded my $100 conference fee back to me yesterday.
Yesterday at 5:53pm · LikeUnlike
Hart Viges
Carl, you got kicked out when Casey asked you, “If US Military Personnel should be killed for Deploying?” You said yes.
And for Casey to record that conversation he was given a ban as well.
Self-Determination is one thing. Support of Murder is another.
Yesterday at 5:58pm · LikeUnlike
Carl Webb
Well you did say that they were hypocrites because they support the murder of Iraqis and Afghans. If someone attacks my family, I’m taking them out. If you want to call me a murderer, then so be it. I do not call the Black and Indigenous people that had to fight slavery and genocide murderers of US imperialist. I would have fought with them. That’s way I could not apply for Conscientious Objection. I if was a slave I’d go Nat Turner on the whole US Calvary. Why do paratroopers yell Geronimo when they jump? He killed a whole bunch of US soldiers.
Yesterday at 6:22pm · LikeUnlike
Bobby Mavi Marmara Whittenberg
If we can get kicked out of IVAW for believing that people of all races and nationalities have the right to self determination and the right to resist violent imperialist powers by taking up arms then I should have my membership revoked as well. The right to defend one’s self and community is a human right.
Yesterday at 6:38pm
Dahlia Wasfi
The energy directed against Carl would be far better spent directed against the occupation. It’s as if Carl is Sunni and IVAW is Shia, for heaven’s sake. Sectarian strife is the occupier’s best friend.
Yesterday at 8:02pm · LikeUnlike ·
Carl Herman
Our soldiers are never informed of war laws, only war crimes, and then trained like Nazis to “always place the mission first” instead of their Oath to the US Constitution. If they were briefed on the legislative victory of WW2, they’d say as Pat Tillman before he was executed, “This war is so fucking illegal.” For those soldiers who want a rush, they should organize, refuse, and arrest those issuing all orders pertaining to this unlawful war. Know US soldiers who want to understand this? Here’s an article with links to my two best shots to explain these Orwellian wars: http://www.examiner.com/x-18425-LA-County-Nonpartisan-Examiner~y2010m6d16-Is-President-Obama-a-puppet-on-the-left-arm-of-one-fascist-US-political-monster-Jon-Stewart-video
Yesterday at 11:43pm · LikeUnlike
Carl Webb
I hope they didn’t ban Dahlia. Is Arab Voices promoting the event here in Texas?
Yesterday at 11:50pm · LikeUnlike
Hart Viges
this gets us nowhere. to kill is wrong, no matter what side your on.
We are going to have our convention in Austin. Allies are welcomed. And Remember your manners, this is Texas after all.
peace, hart
13 hours ago · LikeUnlike
Dahlia Wasfi
Sit under bombardment with 88,500 tons of missiles for 6 straight weeks; watch children die from easily treatable diseases thanks to 13 years of sanctions; have your land invaded and occupied by the strongest and one of the most racist gangs in the world today; watch your friends murdered in the streets by invading soldiers; see your livestock murdered by occupiers; see your family humiliated, maybe raped, maybe killed by said soldiers…THEN come talk to me about what is “wrong.” For the Arab and Muslim world, the Judeo-Christian ethic is represented by white phosphorus, daisy cutters, depleted uranium, napalm, and cluster bombs. How easy it is for the oppressor to pass judgement.
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·
Dahlia Wasfi
Carl, I disassociated myself from IVAW when the organization strayed from the dignity of its founding principles. If you still want to be involved with them, that’s your choice.
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·
Hart Viges
yes, murder and a whole lotta shit with that is “WRONG”. Don’t hold pain over me
And yes I WAS an Oppressor, but if you pay your US Taxes, then so are YOU.
Life is full of shit. We are working to make it better, arn’t we….
Or do we just argue on FB all day.
I wash my hands of this conversation.
6 hours ago · LikeUnlike
Dahlia Wasfi
For anyone who cares to pursue the discussion, that’s true. I am an oppressor. I haven’t paid taxes for the last few years, but I live here; “American” is my nationality, so I’m an oppressor. I never said I wasn’t. That’s not the issue. The issue is that as an oppressor, I would not dare stand in judgement of my victims. THAT is my point. This conversation is a microcosm of what happens with IVAW (as a whole–not necessarily individuals, but as a whole). First, there should be no dissent. Tow the line, or I’m taking my ball and going home. Second, it’s the idea that the soldiers and marines are the ultimate victims. They are victims, no question. There’s no denying the military was lied to. There’s no denying there was betrayal. But it is hypocritical to demand justice for you who has no shoes when you are stepping on the necks of those who have no feet.
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·
Dahlia Wasfi
“Don’t hold pain over me.” I think this says it all:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to … thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”
MATTHEW 7:1-5 (according to the internet)
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike ·
James M. Branum
Dahlia said: “With much respect to James, it really doesn’t make much of a difference to the dead whether their murderers feel bad about killing them or not. It’s not just the testosterone…it’s the racism we’ve been raised on since birth.”
I agree that “feeling bad” doesn’t make a difference in and of itself. — But if feeling bad leads …soldiers to resistance then it is a very good thing. And I would argue that often it does lead to resistance, in both small ways (i.e. refusing to shoot civilians when ordered to do so) and sometimes big ways (refusing to re-deploy).
3 hours ago · LikeUnlike
Dahlia Wasfi
Point taken. And then there’s the further killing that happens when remorse leads to suicide.
Certainly, because of the important work you do, James, you get to see and hear about a lot of resistance. But if it’s true that guilt/remorse “often…does lead to resistance,” and if many troops are looking for a fight but “many more don’t [feel that way],” then as I see it, there wouldn’t be so many dead people and there wouldn’t be so many veterans with two, three, four, or more tours under their belts. Resistance can mean everything for the individual who takes his/her life back. Unfortunately, I think resistance is the exception and not the rule. If the numbers say otherwise, I stand corrected.
36 minutes ago · LikeUnlike ·
Cornelia Maier
Thank you James.
13 minutes ago · Like
The editing, if you can call it that, may have been because it shortened an otherwise long and boring discourse down to the entries pertinant to the point trying to be made. The inclusion of the rest of the drivel neither added nor detracted from the core theme, only made it a chore to read through.
Ouch! You got me there you cute little Trotsky! If that was not a schoolyard come-back I just don’t know what is.
Cue dramatic sports announcer voice:
Bob: Welcome to today’s 2010 Copy and Paste Olympics sponsored by your friends at the ISO! If you’re just
tuning in Dalia Wasfi just blew past her competition,
Carl Webb, in the “copy and paste with no real point”
category.
Bill: She sure did, bob! I mean, wow! Carl Webb has
amazed us with his skill in the past with copying and
pasting whole articles that to him, have a point to
the discussion at hand. But to others, not so much.
But what Dahlia has done here today really passes up
anything Webb has done before.
Bob: No doubt, Bill. While they might be lovers off the
field, on the field they are bitter combatants not unlike
Roman Gladiators of the past. Webb’s technique requires
no reformatting of the original text save deleting some
extra spaces. But what Dahlia has done is taken a very
long Facebook argument and reformatted the entire thing
to make sure you know who said what. She has even shared
with us some of her dramatic flair by speaking in the
first person about events she has never been in.
Bill: Yes! By talking about the pains of her family as if
she was actually there really adds to the dramatic perception. It’s almost as if she wants people to think she actual cares about her family, while does nothing real or tangible to help them.
Bob: Notice how she and others throw the race card out when someone disagrees with them! I mean, we are even racist for commenting on this sporting event!
Bill: Bob.
Bob: Yes?
Bill: I’m African-American.
Bob: Of course you are, but clearly, the point has been made.
Bill: Bob, you are African-American too.
Bob: Oh, yeah…
Bwaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha! Drama Queens all.
Is it just me, or was Matthis trying to buddy up to Carl by claiming he didn’t have any part in throwing him out of IVAW? Hmmm… must think Carl could be useful. Otherwise, why the feigned concern??
Are they still calling themselves Iraq Veterans Against the War?
I wonder what percentage of those left in IVAW are actually Iraq vets?
I chuckle at all the false courage. How brave is it to act like an idiot in CONUS. No cop is gonna shoot you, no political officer is gonna designate you an enemy of the state and shoot you, you’ll spend no time in a prison as a political prisoner, you family is in no danger of being shot or taken away for your political activities. Hell, chances are people will actually give your foolishness some creedance by paying attention to you. Oppressors? LOL, y’all really should do stand up. BTW buy a fucking calendar, its 2010 not 1968, communism isn’t cool anymore and hasn’t been for a long time because it like sucked and stuff.
Watch it Finrod, your talking to radical revolutionaries! They might protest somewhere on a weekend if you keep taunting them.
In the words of the brave fwench soldiers standing high on their wall in the Holy Grail
“Ah taunt you a second time!”….and like, stuff…
Oh noes!!!! LOL, I am just a fearing, good point brother.
Don’t you have some dishes to wash, or did you get shitcanned from that job, too? And NO, you can’t sleep on my couch. GTFO.
I am former Airborne and in 41 “Leaps of Faith”, I never ever once shouted, yelled or otherwise uttered “Geronimo”. But then, this was waaaaaay back in history, even before the faux Commies of the late 60’s.