Ok it should be noted that I have mixed feelings about this issue. So with that in mind lets get stated.
Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
“It’s our fundamental right to decide how we want to teach our children,” says Uwe Romeike, an Evangelical Christian and a concert pianist who sold his treasured Steinway to help pay for the move.
Romeike decided to uproot his family in 2008 after he and his wife had accrued about $10,000 in fines for homeschooling their three oldest children and police had turned up at their doorstep and escorted them to school. “My kids were crying, but nobody seemed to care,”
It would seem like a straight forward issue except that can homes schooling be as effective as standard schooling be it public or private? It the parents are quoted that it would cost too much to send too to private schools. But I have to ask if they cannot afford the money of sending to a private school, then how can they afford only one working parent? Not to mention of keeping the teacher parent certified that anything taught will be taken seriously. Also there is the social issue
“No parental couple can offer a breadth of education [that can] replace experienced teachers,” says Kraus, of the German Teachers’ Association. “Kids also lose contact with their peers.”
I noticed that about one person that was being home schooled back in the 90s. Acted like he was in elementary school and we where both suppose to be at Freshmen level of High school. Just a lot of concepts and language that was totally different.
One of the Romeikes’ concerns was about their kids getting bullied. But their main objection involved what was being taught in the classroom. “The curriculum goes against our Christian values,” Uwe says. “German schools use textbooks that force inappropriate subject matter onto young children and tell stories with characters that promote profanity and disrespect.”
Ok, so what happens when they have to face it in the workplace or outside of school, not to mention if they ever have to be in charge of people. Also the article does not go into what specific they opposite in the classroom.
Then I read this and it caught my eye. Sounded like something right out of a IVAW play book.
So why did he seek asylum in the U.S. rather than relocate to nearby Austria or another European country that allows homeschooling? Romeike’s wife Hannelore tells TIME the family was contacted by the Virginia-based Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA), which suggested they go to the U.S. and settle in Morristown, Tenn. The nonprofit organization, which defends the rights of the U.S. homeschooling community
Except that I am sure that this will cause the same issues and problems that our favorate Asylum seeking IVAW member Andre Shepard
“It’s very unusual for people from Western countries to be granted asylum in the U.S.,” says David Piver, an immigration attorney with offices in a Philadelphia suburb and Flagstaff, Ariz. In 2008, the most recent year for which data are available, only five Germans received asylum in the U.S. (The Justice Department declined to comment on specific cases.) Piver, who is not involved in the Romeike case, predicted the U.S. government would appeal the decision “so as not to offend a close ally.”
So rather then trying for a place where they have a better chance of being granted asylum but now because they are going to do this by a group that I am willing to bet sees this as more of a political move then of a concern of the children and parents. Not to mention that that diplomatic issues between Germany and our government are going to slow things down to a crawl. Andre’s hearing was in early 2009 and still no ruling on his case. Even then it will be in a constant cycle of appeals. I imagine the same thing for this German couple to the point where that they will be off in college before the ruling is decided.
There could be other issues here that have not be brought up but just because it is banned does not mean that it is the right choice automatically.
The homeschooling ban was one Nazi law the Germans enjoyed keeping. Really. Hitler didn’t want any competition from home when it came to molding young minds. Left/liberals hate homeschooling for the same reason.
Sadly, it seems that the Nazi indoctrination of German youth continues through the German government.
I homeschool my youngest daughter. I will NEVER allow her to be taught by the filthy union leftist thugs that infect our public school system. She will have a world-class education, and it isn’t at all hard to do. Our public school system is a disgrace to our nation. It should be bull dozed into the rubbish heap of history and rebuilt with a mandate that only local citizens can approve teacher contracts, syllabus, and textbooks.
I put public schools, and the teacher’s unions right up on top of the list of things that America should hang it’s head in shame about.
AW1 Tim
How does that work as far as your daughter’s work getting accredited?
I agree that our public school system needs work but not everyone has the ability to send their kids to private schools or can home school them due to their economic situation.
This may be because I went to Texas public schools or that I have family and friends that work in various parts of the public educations system that I never really saw anything that would suggest that the teacher was leaning ether way politically. Also considering the education requirements that it takes to be a teacher that often it becomes very hard to pay back the loans on a teacher’s salary.
I can’t blame them for coming here. With the EU, those other countries might not remain “home-school friendly”… I’m a certified teacher, though I haven’t landed that first teaching job since graduating. I sub a lot. There are good teachers and there are crap teachers. The problem is, even in a non-teacher union state like Texas, a teacher REALLY has to screw up to not have a contract renewed. And, as mentioned above, education is dominated by liberals/leftists. That’s one reason that contributed for my attempted career change – I didn’t want to completely abandon kids in public schools to liberal indoctrination. However, if I ever find Mr. Right and have kids, I will seriously consider homeschooling them…
If I may ask what are some examples that you have seen?
I substitute teach. I was in a classroom with a Che poster on the wall… here in Austin…
Wow, never had to deal with anything like that. Most of the time it was just social gossip then anything about politics. I went to a middle school in San Antonio and High School in New Braunfels. That was back in 1998 when I finished high school.
With a Che poster on the wall of a classroom at a government-funded school, i.e., funded by our TAX dollars? That is despicable. Che Guevara was a terrorist.
It can be subtle. I exclusively work with elementary kids, I’m sure there’s a difference with the older kids. It can be the kinds of books the teacher makes available/shares with the kids. The curriculum is a guideline, but how exactly a teacher implements the guideline can vary. I was in a classroom as a Special Ed sub and got to hear the teacher read “Faithful Elephants” to the 5th graders. It’s a story written by an anti-war Japanese person about how the elephant at the Tokyo zoo were slowly starved to death during WWII. She talked about the “author purpose” (to persuade people to be against war), but she didn’t share anything that offered an alternative viewpoint (like the good things war has accomplished – like ending slavery, or the genocide of the Jews). I wrote about that (children’s book reviews is one of my “things” on my blog) at the time. It really bothered me, but as a sub, I’m not entitled to do anything about how a teacher does things in their classroom.
It was a bilingual classroom. I didn’t sign up to sub for a bilingual teacher, but that’s where they put me when I got there. They were playing around with the sub stuff for some reason…
You also have discipline issues. There is a limit to what a teacher is allowed to do to deal with an unruly student. And, if you can’t get “buy in” from parents about how a child behaves…
Oh, and I’m guessing the Che poster was something the teacher bought on their own. There isn’t funding for decorating classrooms… But, yes, a Che poster was hanging on the wall in a publicly funded school.
This too shall pass.
Perhaps that book does not phase me so much because I was reading about accounts of WW2 from the books in the school library. It was from Lifetime series on WW2 and it had some very up front photos. I was looking at this while I was in third grade. I had to get special permission to do this because i wanted to read about the aircraft of ww2 and they just gave me one book called the Wizard’s flying machine. Also I got in a lot of fights at recess so instead I would just stay inside and read to stay out of trouble.
Also my friends and parents would talk about history from all time periods. So even then it was not like the teachers where the only people I relied on for history knowledge.
Also a concern about what the students should be learning as far as academics. Becuase my mom had to fight with school officials to let me take the TAAS test and similar things because the school just saw someone who could not do it because I had a learning disability.
There are more concerns but that would take a while.
Sporkmaster, you raised lots of questions. Since I have already written my essay for the evening, I am trying my best to not write another one, heh…though if anyone is interested, I can send links to things both my oldest daughter and I have written about homeschooling; in particular, unschooling..
You wrote, “It would seem like a straight forward issue except that can homes schooling be as effective as standard schooling be it public or private?”
In short, yes. Some of the top students in the nation are homeschoolers and there are homeschoolers who go on to become top students at Ivy League schools. Of course, there are also those who go on to never attend college at all and live a very average life, perhaps no better than the average result of the public schools, perhaps even worse. There an be a wide range. My personal opinion is that that the least effective approach to home education is to copy the education model of the public schools (or, for that matter, the majority of private schools – though that’s not to say that they aren’t effective within their own realm).
If you look at national spelling bees, they are disproportionately won by homeschoolers. That’s not a reason, per se, to homeschool your children, of course (I would hope that parents have deeper reasons for making that choice), but it does show that homeschooling can produce top results.
To be honest, if a parent has been doing a rather crappy job of parenting from birth, homeschooling is probably not going to fix that. That’s not an argument against homeschooling per se, but the whole nurture question does have its place of relevance. While most homeschoolers would probably not agree with me, I think, actually, in some cases, homeschooling could potentially set the stage for the worse possible results in rare cases while in other cases, it could produce the very best. As with anything, the majority will lie somewhere in between.
When I worked as a university admissions advisor, we had quite a few homeschoolers come to our university, and a lot of them had never been in a school before at all. Of the ones I personally dealt with, I found them to be outstanding young people who were not only delightful to talk with, but were also excellent students academically.
I think the best reason to homeschool is because of the benefit to both parents and children of the time spent together in a home environment – a very rare and precious commodity in today’s world.
Sporkmaster, you wrote, “It [sic] the parents are quoted that it would cost too much to send too to private schools. But I have to ask if they cannot afford the money of sending to a private school, then how can they afford only one working parent?” Your question seems to be biased in the view that it is better for a mother (or in some cases, the father) to leave the home and go to work to send her children to a private school than to stay home, live frugally, and homeschool. Again, at the heart of that is the issue of time spent together, nurturing relationships with your children and guiding them in their moral development. However, I have also known mothers whose sole motivation for working was to send their children to private schools. They worked very hard to achieve that and their children turned out wonderfully. I think it is admirable and I certainly wouldn’t begrudge them. It is a personal choice.
Parents do not need to be certified teachers to be effective as home educators; indeed, they rarely are.
As to the socialization question, it depends on what it is you want for your children and family. I’ve never been aware that the artificial age-segregated, government-controlled environment of the public schools produce a healthy socialization of children. However, you mentioned the example of a student who had been homeschooled who you felt was immature. Again, there are no guarantees because it is not a scientific process. There are a lot of variables involved and it is just a fact that parents don’t always follow what might be the healthiest or most optimal practices. I think the best way to encourage healthy parenting practices that produce happy, healthy, well-adjusted, intelligent children, is by modeling healthy parenting, supporting other parents, setting the example, and not getting the government involved.
But that’s just me…one of those radical libertarian weirdos…
Same here, I want to write a longer reply because just like many things it is one thing to make a plan and another to make it work.
I didn’t have a problem with the factual book. I had a problem with how it was presented, without the opposing POV… She did it at the very end of the day without any real opportunity for the students to discuss the issue. These were 5th graders, so mature enough to have such a discussion.
I grew up with the Time-Life WWII series. My dad “subscribed” to it. He still has them, though they are current in boxes in his garage. My parents also bought the T-L Vietnam series, and the one on the American West. I flipped through those books as a child. Yeah, even that photo of the VietCong prisoner being executed at point-blank range…
As for socializing homeschooled children, my best friend worked with a group in NW AR. There was some sort of “center” where homeschooled children would get together for social opportunities and for specialized training. My best friend taught music, specifically, singing (she now holds her Ph.D. in music and teaches at a small college in SW MO). The young people she worked with there were very well-adjusted, well-behaved young people. I gather that many homeschoolers network with each other in their localities to give their children those socialization experiences.
Yes, there are homeschooling organizations and networks across the nation – in some places more than others, many of them Christian fundamentalist homeschool groups, but also many that are not. The Christian fundamentalist groups are more prevalent in some areas than others, but there are still homeschoolers of all sorts. (I always preferred being around secular unschooler types myself, even though I’m a Christian.) But the roots of socialization take place in the heart of a healthy, loving family; that is the one thing you can not find outside the home!
Sporkmaster, just a short one as no time, but,yes, homeschooling can be and often is better (and less expensive) than public or private. There are groups that support and help, and if you do a little digging you will find that homeschool often (quite often) not only beat out public (and private) on the various tests. Lot out there on this, and am glad my two godsons are homeschooled — they are far ahead of contemporaries, have great social skills, and are eager to learn even more.
LW
It occurs to me that if you want to claim that homeschooling couldn’t possibly be as effective as public education and wish to use your own public education as an example of that effectiveness, you should take the time to ensure that your writings reflect a better than below average grasp of the written language.
I completed my public education in 1979, before the federal government and teachers’ unions became so deeply involved and mucked it all up; I think I turned out okay. I wish I was as confident about today’s public education system.
I’ll do the reader’s digest version. I have a sister that was a public school teacher in a state that is supposedly in the top tier of the public school system……she homeschools her kids, now; does that tell you something?
My daughters were public schooled and I am a history buff. I was appalled at some of the twisted revisionist history being taught in the public school system. Everything had a leftist bent to it. One particular paper she had to do, we looked up the information from our very own National Archives website and I wanted her to see the difference between what she was being told in her history books vs. what was in the US Archives. It was 180 degree difference over fact. I told her to use what was in the archives, but she said she had to use what was in the text book, otherwise she would get a failing grade.
That is the poor excuse for public schools these days. Many of the teachers aren’t middle of the road and they are the ones who control what our kids are taught, no matter what the truth is.
As a recovering public school teacher I had the experience of working with a few home schoolers that eventually came to high school for subject matter beyond their parents ability. In my case I taught Chemistry and Physics and the homeschoolers I had were VERY well rounded in their abilities. I realize this is anecdotal but in my state (Michigan, big union state) the homeschoolers as a group generally do better on standardized tests. As far as socialization goes, homeschoolers can participate in sports and other extra-curriculars such as plays, choir, band, etc… I’ve not ever seen where homeschoolers were any worse or better off socially…..
I would gladly put a Che poster up in my classroom…..with freaking crosshairs on it……
Also, in either the district I went to school in or the one I taught in I never ran across what I would consider “indoctrination”. Of course they were both smaller district serving small towns (certainly smaller than Austin, San Antonio, or New Braunfels) Heck, the kids in the district I went to school in and where my kids currently go all know the Pledge of Allegiance AND the Star Spangled Banner!!!
The only disagreement I really have with this is your question about “if they cannot afford the money of sending to a private school, then how can they afford only one working parent?
Since when did it become wrong to live your life that way? Has our society become so twisted that it is a must for both parents to work? I am not a believer in barefoot and pregnant but staying at home is a choice for each and every family to make for themselves and should not be ridiculed by others. Many of todays problems are caused, at least in part, because both parents are working and they are never home leaving kids to fend for themselves. For many families, that is not an option, but for those who can live on one paycheck, it should be encouraged.
Sorry to be late in getting back. I had a cold bug hit my sinuses last night and this morning is a real pain.
I chose to take my youngest out of the public school system when she started the middle school (6-8 grade). Prior to that, she had been in the Gifted & Talented program from 1st through 5th grade. My decision was based upon several factors. Chief among these was disgust at the level of politics present, and the subtle ways that leftist ideology was worked into the classroom. Second was the “dumbing down” of the subjects in order to increase graduation rates and get more funding. Third was that the majority of schooling was teaching towards the standardized tests, and NOT doing anything outside of what was covered on state-wide tests, or required by the “No Child Left Behind” mandates.
I teach my child on a combined-subject basis. That’s my name for it. There are certain things we do each day, but the days are flexible so we can take advantage of things that come along.
As an example, the 6th Grade here covers ancient Egypt, Greece & Rome. I started her out learning about the tale of Osiris, and giving her a general overview of Egyptian history through the three Kingdoms. I asked her then to develop a presentation of the story of Osiris, and she wrote it out as a play. Her decision, not mine. We’ve also talked about what foods the Egyptians ate, and why. That led to discussions on crops and how the Nile’s cycle works to help the plants grow. How they germinate, etc. Why irrigation is important.
Now I am about to start teaching her the basics of drafting. That will help both her art and drawing skills, but will also help with her understanding of proportion. Her assignments will be to draw out plans for both an Egyptian Temple and a Pyramid. Afterward, we will build these out of foam core and matte board. This also helps her understanding of fractions and angles. Geometry learned through doing.
We also discuss things as we walk. It isn’t just going from place to place (although sometimes it is). I point out things along the route about our local history, building styles, types of trees, plants, etc. We discussed one day how asphalt roads came about and why we still use them here rather than concrete.
Next up will be the Greeks. We may get to the Romans this year, but more likely this December, when we celebrate Saturnalia.
The State of Maine doesn’t require any specific presentations per se, for her overall accomplishments, She has to show some sort of proof of two years of foreign language, and 1/2 year of health education. Beyond that, what she learns and when she learns it is up to me.
My daughter attends a 2-hour art program at the Middle school every week. She also is involved with the Rainbow Girls. I’m also bringing her along with me next month to Washington for the Milblogger’s Conference. We’re going to get in early Friday and see some of DC, and then spend Sunday seeing more, so she can learn about the capitol, and visit a number of monuments, and, especially, the Smithsonion.
Anyway, that’s a look at how things are working out here.
Respects,
Hey, Tim. Could we get you to drop on by Michigan and give the State Department of Ed. a hint or two? Just asking. I worked in a “Blue Ribbon” school for 8 years, not in a teaching position. I was in the halls all day long, and what I heard coming out of the history and government classrooms was certainly different than what I heard in high school and college, way back when. And what I saw in some of the classrooms was certainly an eye-opener.
I’ve seen the requisite Che poster, a Fidel-Che poster, and tons of what can only be called campaign material, during the 04 election cycle. Not to mention what the teacher would say as a parting shot as the kids filed out of the classroom.
Oh man, my whole opinion turned during the ’04 campaign. My oldest daughter was in High School. (my kids are 23, 21 & 11, because God, it seems, has a sense of humour).
Anyway, I had to go to the school to drop off some books I was donating, and was shocked at what I saw. Teachers everywhere were walking around with Kerry/Edwards pins, there were posters in the hall and in the classrooms. I was beyond angry. I confronted both a member of my school board and the principle and was told by both that it was a “freedom of speech” issue. I told them it was a violation of the teacher/student relationship and abuse of power.
My oldest daughter was able to vote in her first election then, and had been elected as a delegate to the State Republican Convention. She was literally afraid to say anything in class for fear of having her grades docked. She was doing everything to keep her grades up in order to get a scholarship, and she was convinced that two of her teachers (both Union reps at the school) would both humiliate her and punish her grade-wise for her own political views.
Fortunately, she got out of there, and she did get the scholarship, but she is still angry about that situation, as ANYONE should be. Regardless of your politics, the schools should be free of those sorts of things. Teachers, and others in a position of authority should NOT be openly wearing political buttons or displaying such materials in their classrooms or anywhere in the school.
respects,
Good grief UpNorth…where do you live? If I go back into teaching I want to avoid that district. I went to school in Jackson (when Reagan was elected) and taught in Battle Creek (when Clinton was elected) and I never saw that kind of stuff going on. Now our MEA rag was nothing more than a list of complaints about Gov. Engler but I never saw that boil over into the classroom.
Tim~
My brother is 42, I’ll be 40 in July. My sister who got married in November turned 29 Sunday, and my youngest sister is 25. Yeah, same parents for all of us…
The schools I’ve been in as a sub don’t seem to allow open expression of politics in the classroom, though I see bumper stickers on the cars… In my education courses (through Texas State University), it was stressed that we needed to keep personal opinions about politics/religion to ourselves because of our position of influence over the children. Didn’t like the “Multicultural Education” course that was required. One of the websites my instructor used was from some leftist professor somewhere else. Made note site and checked it out later. The words “social justice” get me riled… One of my posts, “Sheepdogs”, was inspired by something one of my lefty classmates shared in the writing course. Not everyone in my classes was lefty, but not many seemed to be obviously right, either. Maybe a lot of middle-ground, go with the flow, don’t make waves, don’t question authority types…
Wonderful stories! I enjoyed every word.
One of the things that I was thinking about that I wondered how home school parents address is how do they face the challenges of what happens when the parent is unable to teach the course to to lack of knowledge or experience like Pre-Cal or other higher level courses.
Also I would like to challenge the notion that everyone has the option of just quitting their job to homeschool. More so with the economic challenges facing us today. Other issue could be single parent families, limited education, or large amount of debt(regardless if that debt was caused by reasonable or reckless actions).
Also this may be preference, but it think that it is outdated to expect that one can be a jack of all trades. Sooner or later you will have to be trained by subject mater experts.
Lastly one of the things that comes up in the home school issue is the evolution/creation debate. It is a issue that people have on this where they see evolution as a attack on their faith. The irony is this subject was that evolution was taken to court to prevent it from entering the classroom. It is the reason that Kansas is considering a laughing stock of the scientific community.
But going back to the original issue it comes down to the parent’s involvement is going to be the biggest factor in a child’s education. My did the same for me learning about history and other subjects of interest.
Also one thing that I talked to one of my friends that went to public schools in Germany was that rather then a generic academic skills, the students would learn a trade skill and by their early 20s have a journeyman’s license. Something that from what I have seen is something that people only get for a much longer time. Is it a better way, who knows but it does go into the idea that not everyone needs to go to college to succeed in life.
But that is enough of me yapping for one post.
Ok get down upon your knees and feel blessed that I have taken time out from my busy schedule of cooking and cleaning and that I have come to weigh in on this very difficult issue. I tipped the scales today 85 kilos today. That is pretty damn good for someone 5ft. 3in. That gives me some authority in weighing the pros and cons of different policy positions.
Before I give my ruling it is a prerequisite that you know that there has to be rules. There also has to be be exceptions to the rules. There also has to be exceptions to the exceptions. There also has to be a way for a committee of wise people to come together who can throw the rule book away. Life is complicated. There also is a need for the government workers who deal with this subject to be able to convince unruly parents that parents who refuse to send their children to a doctor because they are what ever that religion is that never gets sick have to live in a larger society just like people who do not like Che. So if you think that Texas sucks you should move to Vermont. You may not see the connection now between that religion that never gets sick and home schulers but you will some day. I am not going to hand it to you on a silver platter.
So, here is my ruling. Germany should continue to outlaw home schooling. Austria should continue to allow home schooling.
In the US home schooling should only be allowed after the sixth grade. If parents think that their children are being negatively influenced in grade school they are more than free tell them, we think that what you learned in school today is wrong. If your teacher asks you a question about this subject you tell the teacher that she says Apples grow on trees but my parents say that money grows on trees, or whatever the disagreement is. IF the children to be home schooled take a government test that shows that the children are already reading and capable of doing math at a sixth grade level they can be home schooled earlier.
After 14 years of age the children must agree to to be home schooled. They will be asked by a social welfare worker before the start of each school semester. If a child decides during the semester that they want to go back to school they will have a cooling off period until the end of the semester to make sure that is what they really want to do. Home schooling will be regulated by the government.
Parents will be able to teach their children what ever they damned well please. Even very controversial things like the Holocaust did not happen, or the Armenian Genocide did not happen, or 9-11 was US government attack on the US people, or that the earth is really flat, or that the earth began on November 22nd 1963 and everything that we think happened before that is really just an implanted memory. The government can require that whatever it damn well pleases is also taught and to make sure that it is taught the children will be tested on it. Failure will mean that it was not taught and will be used as evidence that the parents are not honoring their duty as parents to make sure that children are properly educated. A judge can then decide if the parents are fit to raise children.
Now you the reader might disagree with with my proposal. If you do you are wrong and you should burn in hell, twice.
The facts in this case are plain. Ronald is on my side.
I sure as hell do not mean Ronald McDonald, you son of a preacher, although he may also be on my side.
Get real, join the real deal. It may not be easy. It may not be hard. It will be scenic.
In honor of Erich Fromm.
I fogot a very important principle concerning home schooling that needs to be addressed, secretly. That is why I am writing it here where it will only be between me and God (or the Unitarian Universalist Buddhist Communist Libertarian (real)Conservative Sufi Central Committee) on this God forsaken thread, figuratively speaking of course.
The princeiple is that home schooling, which must be regulated by social workers if it is not to be considered child abuse, imposes an extra cost on society that is not imposed by those who send thier children to private or public schools. Yes one can say that it costs 5000 dollars to educate each child in a public school but the cost for an extra child is actually nothing. The school building is all ready there, the teachers are already there, all the costs of maintaining the system will be the same if only a few children are added to the system. Yet those few that take their children out of the system by home schooling now create extra costs by creating a need to have some oversight of the education that the children are getting at home.
It is only fair that home schoolers pay a fee for the extra costs that they are imposing on society. I no some libertarians will say, look I am not forcing you to send someone to my home to oversee what I am doing to my children.
But that is an unfair defense becasue if parents are allowed to home school children without any oversight some of them will certianly give thier children only one lesson, how to weave a Persian Carpet, or how to sew mens shirts. Others may limit thier classes to how to read the Koran, or how to read the Bible backwards. Therefore the fee is justified.
In honor of,
Helmuth von Mücke
1881-1957
A special Fee
What the helll is the problem is my post to insulting to the Persian rug industry, implying that they take advantage of child labor or something like that?
Are you friends with the Persian Carpet Manufactures Lobby now? I myself support the Carpet Weavers Union.
Curt…
What the h3ll was that?
You either left off the /sarc tags, or you need to get back on your meds.
Respects,
I agree with AW1. Believe it or not.
Heh…. I dunno, I think we’d prolly get along famously!
So Debra, and AW 1, what is your position on home schooling?
Should it be allowed and regulated, allowed and unregulated, or not allowed at all? Should there be any costs to it or should it be free? Should children have any say in the decision or only the parents? If children do get a say at what age 8, 18 or somewhere in between?
Does this issue have anything at all in common with the Christian Sceintist sect that does not believe in using Dr’s but in prayer to get better when one is sick?
Is there any doubt that Governments can do a horrible job educating people? Is there any doubt that some parents are horrible parents and would also do a really horrible job educating thier children? How do propose balancing these two potentially bad choices?
Damn, Curt ran out of lithium once again.
Heh-heh…Yeah, we prolly would…
Answering the questions and points you brought up, Sporkmaster:
What happens when a parent is unable to teach a course due to lack of knowledge or experience? There can be a wide range in how homeschoolers think and approach “education” in general, and “teaching courses” to the child is not necessarily, or always, how the education at home takes place. Some homeschoolers do take more of a “school” approach, some even hire tutors, some homeschoolers join together with other homeschoolers and get a teacher to teach certain subjects to their children. There is not just one approach to these things or one solution to the various problems that might arise during homeschooling that solutions are sought for.
While mostly I homeschooled my oldest daughter when she was young, up until the age of 10 1/2, she did want to stay home again for the 8th grade while I, unfortunately, being a single mother, had one full-time job outside the home and one part-time computer-based job at home. Although all of my non-working time was spent with my daughter, every minute of which I treasured, this did not work out well from a social standpoint due to having no family or roots where we lived (a long story in and of itself). Some single parents do successfully homeschool and find ways of surviving and even thriving. But this usually depends a lot on the kind of support they get from others, particularly from other family members or church community, which, for us, unfortunately, was non-existent; rather, it was more a matter of constantly having to defend ourselves against attacks by others. The result was that my daughter was alone at home while I was at work, and I had no choice but to work. However, as far as academic progress goes, I provided books and textbooks to my daughter and she taught herself, including Algebra. She actually did quite wonderfully from an academic standpoint. She later helped me with my own Algebra as I never quite got a grasp on it in the public schools back in the 60’s and 70’s. I reckon things turned out okay for her education as she now holds a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering from Georgia Tech…
However, that is just one story. Sometimes homeschooling parents will band together and share expertise or even hire a teacher to teach certain subjects. Again, there is a wide range in how homeschooling families approach things.
My son-in-law’s younger brother was homeschooled for a while after he was expelled from his public school for possession of a pocket knife at a football game. In his case, his mom did send him to classes that was through some kind of formal program (I forget the name of it), then after a couple years of homeschooling, his parents put him in a private school where he is now finishing up high school.
Some homeschoolers might learn at home up to a certain point, then, instead of going to high school, simply start college classes – as some public high school students do as well, i.e., taking classes at a local college in the junior and senior year of high school (my daughter did that also).
As to your statement that you would like to challenge the notion that everyone has the option of just quitting their job to homeschool, well, as you can see, you certainly don’t need to challenge that notion. I think it is well-recognized that it is only the very fortunate who have the luxury to choose homeschooling. On the other hand, most of those who do have that luxury do not make that choice, so just having the money for one parent to stay at home is obviously not enough either.
As for the evolution/creation debate, I don’t see where this should pose any particular difficulty with regard to homeschooling. Actually, it is how the problem could be solved. Parents should have the right to teach their children according to their own beliefs. The only time the evolution/creation debate should be relevant is when you are talking about a public school that is funded by the government. Take the government control and funding out of things, then it ought to be no one’s business to interfere with any private or home education endeavor that is teaching creation or evolution. The government doesn’t interfere with what churches teach; why should it interfere with what parents or private schools teach? (That’s not to say necessarily that it doesn’t, but rather that it shouldn’t.)
The last point you brought up – that not everyone is cut out for college and about learning a trade – I certainly agree. There should definitely be options open for young people who are not cut out for or do not wish to go college. Of course, there are trade schools anyway, however, the old way of doing things through apprenticeships, is something that is worth being brought back. I have seen this subject addressed in books and articles written by homeschooling parents before, though I’m not up on the subject myself.
My oldest daughter wrote an article a couple years ago about her experience growing up homeschooling (actually only partially homeschooled) that was published on the Life Learning Magazine website at http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/0812/I-was-unschooled.htm
Nice job of dodging the question about government oversight Debra. I guess you can get away with it. Sure some parents might teach both evolution and creationism at home with out the government telling them to. But that is by no means the only range of possibilities. A couple from North Korea could end up in the US because they applied for political asylum but they were really spies and they could teach their children that Kim Il Sung is God. Are you soft on North Korean Communists Debra? Even Captain Watada was willing to serve in South Korea Debra. Did you know that? Did you learn that in school?
How many schools and how many parents teach this little fairy tale to American children Debra. The Supreme Court is the final arbitrator of the law of the US. Yes what proof do we have that this claim is true? We have proof that it is not true. Around 1840 the Supreme Court ruled that the Cherokee People could not be forced off their land in North Carolina and Tennessee. Yet I bet you know what really happened don’t you? What really happened is that the President Andrew Jackson did not enforce the Courts decision. What that really teaches us is that the President can get away with what ever he damn well pleases as long as there are not a hell of a lot of well armed and well organized people to tell him otherwise. 1840 was a long time ago. Do you see any evidence that anything has changed in the mean time?
Debra, who do you want America’s children to learn their fairy tales from, the government educated teachers, the religiously educated clergy, or the followers of some cult figure like Ayn Rand and her “objectivist” movement. Despite her name Ayn Rand was a Russian. Did you know that?
Did you know that Allen Greenspan was a admirer of hers?
Is it important that a child should know that?
Your answer might depend on how you think children learn.
Are they sponges? Can they be trained to become sponges?
In a society in which the politicians, the lawyers, the judges, the military officer corp, the businessmen, the clergy, and the press, have all become morally bankrupt, at least institutionally speaking, does it make any difference?
Curt, you can’t write a coherent sentence, let alone substantiate a point, yet your European ass insists on weighing in on how people chose to educate their kids in America… Are you huffing gold spray paint or epoxy glue?
Keep on posting, you are just one example of why we Americans should quit the’Nother American Taxpayer Obligation and leave you Western Euro-weenies to your own devices!
I do believe the previous post was about a Bat Shit Crazy Lunatic…..
Some of you seem to enjoy dropping names. Names like lithium, or Bat Shit Crazy Lunatic. Well for your arrogance I am going to drop a name of my own, MSG Stewart, Special Forces, FT. Lewis, (that is in Washington).
Hahahahaha I got you by the balls on that one. Did I break your precious code? Are you going to out me as a phoney warrior now too. The thing is you can’t. The awful truth that gun toting American conservatives can not stand to face is that American Liberals and their Euro winnie cousins are just as capable of killing people as any E-7 Ranger or Marine follower of the corprate controlled Military Industrial Complex. What makes American liberals and Euro winnies superior is that they have learned from history to be much much more discriminating about who deserves to be killed. Pretend Conservaives never learn. For them any excuse is an excuse for war so that they can go around parading about how they are protecting us. And ask for our appreciation for their phoney sacrifices. Let me count the number of Wehrmacht soldiers who were greviously wounded fighting against the Russians. Oh those Wehrmacht soldiers were so sure that they were defending civiliazation itself against the gates of hell. But they were fools now weren’t they. Our soldiers and marines are not fools only those who do not appreciate what they are doing are fools. Why the idea that Majors and Colonels are fighting in Afganistan because they are carrerists is so absurd it should never appear in print. The idea that NCOs are fighting in Afghanistan because they are too stupid to know how stupid they are is an idea that is to subversive to appear in print as well.
One thing that they are right about though. The war will not end when they come home. The war will not end until high level American war criminals are standing trial.
By the way, to whoever dares. I will stack my DD 214 up against yours anytime baby! Mine is 10 inches long. It has four stacks and not a glue mark on it. I even stenciled the name of Tracey on it really nicely.
I have to admit, I am now more stoopider after reading that screed, my brain just threw up.
Curt,
I wasn’t aware that you were expecting to hear my response to the question of government oversight of homeschooling. However, if you’d like to know my longstanding opinion of over two decades, it is that all compulsory school attendance laws should be abolished. However, I’m not interested in debating the matter, nor will I entertain any arguments to the contrary. (Yes, I’m very set in my ways on that. At my age, I feel I’m entitled to be.)
You mentioned Captain Watada. You were referring to Ehren Watada? Uh…I’m not aware that he was promoted to captain? It is widely known that First Lieutenant Watada was willing to serve in Afghanistan, but not Iraq. It was Iraq he had the legal problem with. I’m quite familiar with the case. What is your point?
I’m also well aware of the story of the Cherokee removal and the Trail of Tears. I used to live in Cherokee County, Georgia, where the history of the Trail of Tears was (and probably still is) half-heartedly kept alive through an annual Indian Festival and Pow Wow every year on Mother’s Day weekend. It was a tradition for my children and me to attend every year when they were still young. Yes, I think the Cherokee removal is a good example of a president exercising more power than he lawfully possesses, a problem we still have today.
You ask who do I want America’s children to learn their fairy tales from. Since I’m an individualist and not a collectivist, I think that decisions regarding the education and upbringing of children should be made by their parents, ideally within the context of a healthy extended family and community.
I do not consider Ayn Rand to be a cult figure…But then, I was never a Randian, nor, actually, even an Objectivist (though I’ve had many Objectivist and Neo-Objectivist friends). Rather, I have always placed the value of her books and intellectual contributions to American society in their proper perspective, taking from her philosophy what I consider to be valuable and leaving behind the rest. I take it you don’t like Ayn Rand? I’m well aware that she was a Russian. The guy who wrote the book, “Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical,” Chris Matthew Sciabarra, is a friend of mine. One reason Ayn Rand was so virulently anti-Communist was because she saw and experienced Communism firsthand in her native country of Russia before immigrating to the United States. Yes, I’ve been aware for many years of Alan Greenspan’s relation with Ayn Rand. No, I don’t think it’s necessary for children to know that, though it may be of interest to some as they get older. Again, what is your point?
To claim that all politicians, lawyers, judges, military officers, businessmen, the clergy, and the press are all morally bankrupt is far too sweeping of a statement to be even remotely meaningful….though there have been times that I have thought that myself. Of course, we live in a morally bankrupt society – this is not news. However, the condition of our morally bankrupt society does not mean that every single individual in all of those professions is likewise morally bankrupt. On the other hand, the Bible does say that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. I do think it’s very difficult for morally-conscientious parents to navigate their way through this very complex society to find a coherent path. Similar to how it’s very difficult to navigate a way through your very complex and incoherent writings to respond to your questions and statements in an objective and coherent fashion. Indeed, the first thought that comes to mind upon reading your garbled and disconnected comments is that a little education is a dangerous thing. ..
Your name is MSG Stewart and you are retired Special Forces? I have only known one retired Master Sergeant of the Special Forces who is a leftist – one of the few leftists I’ve ever genuinely admired in spite of disagreeing with the politics. Also, I confess, that he is unusually good looking for an old guy, goes a long way… Uh-Hem… Anyway, I actually can see some uncanny similarities between you and him in some things that you mention. I wonder if it is something about being in the Special Forces. Seems like almost every guy I’ve ever known in person or on the internet who spent any amount of time in the Special Forces has these certain unusual and unique psychological characteristics. The reptilian brain, I suppose. Or is it that I just seem to notice the anomalies more? However, besides that your name is different, he is also more coherent and to the point than you are (though, sadly, a leftist nonetheless).
In summary, sorry to bust your bubble, but leftists – whether coherent or incoherent – are not the only folks against the war.
I guess that’s all for now.
Also, I think you need to lay off that hash pipe. I’m very concerned that it’s having an adverse effect on your thought processes… (not to mention that I feel like I’m having a conversation with a stark raving lunatic…) Do you know what the origin of the word “lunatic” is? (OMG… I just realized the Lunacy must be contagious…Okay…I’m going to stop typing now. Walk away from the computer. Forget I ever had this lunatic conversation. Go on with my normal life…) Over and out.
Debra, you’re wasting your time with Curt. His eyes glazed over when he got to “hear my response”, and his feeble, drug-addled brain shut down, even as he began reaching for his hash pipe, lithium and Prozac.
Keep hitting those cocktails, Curt.
Debra, you want to abolish compulsory school attendance laws and you call me the lunatic. Hahahahahahahaha Why don’t we just say that children are the property of their parents? Let parents send their children to play in the coal mines, should we?
I do not take you for a lunatic though you implied that you to were against the war in Iraq. For me that is a pretty clear litmus test. Any real conservative would be against the war in Iraq. Any real conservative would say the war in Iraq is not over until those who lead us there are standing trial.
Any real General who had a shred of honor would save the taxpayers the cost of a trial and march himself in to prison close the cell door behind him and then hand me the key.
The fact that he was following the orders of a democratically elected government are totally irrelevant.
Hitler was democratically elected too.
Of course if he had a note from Hugo Chavez that he was working for Venezuela all along I would let him out.
Debra, I do agree there should be an exception to the mandatory schooling laws. When a child is so smart the she can prove that she does not need to go to school then she should be exempted. Any child that smart would volunteer to go to school anyways so any child that did not volunteer is providing evidence that she really is not smart enough to avoid school. There should of course be exceptions to that exception if a child could demonstrate that because she was a member of a despised minority and she would be subject to harrassment in any school that she went to, or if she could demonstrate that she would be pressured to join a criminal gang no matter what school she attended or if she could demonstrate that every school that she could attend is dangerous, or if she could demonstrate that the conditions in her school are so chaotic that it is not possible to learn anything anyways, or if she can demonstrate that it is unsafe to go outside of her home, then she has a good reason for not going to school. Do you know of any areas where such conditions would apply? Iraq? Detroit? Baltimore? Los Angelas? Afghanistan?