So, I was perusing the new IVAW website (which apparently doesn’t block us yet) and I tripped over these droppings from Victor Agosto;
…the world’s biggest terrorists are the those who will stop at nothing to control land, resources, markets, and people. They are the capitalist ruling class, whose lust for profit cannot be satisfied.
Victor began this journey as an opponent to the war, and now he’s a class warrior. He never claimed to be a conscientious objector, but I guess he would be now, since all wars that the US fights seems to be a war for our capitalist ruling class…even though we didn’t antagonize anyone rational in the Muslim world to cause the attack on September 11th.
Well, we did liberate Kuwait, kept Hussein from using his aircraft against Iraqis, stationed troops in Saudi Arabia at the invitation of the government. We kept the Egyptians and Israelis separated from each other for two decades at the invitation of both governments. We gave aid to nearly every country in the Near East – even Afghanistan – before the attack.
None of that prevented the 9-11 attack. But yeah, it’s all the fault of the capitalists. If you have the memory the same length as a fruit fly’s life span.
But Victor is a great example of the influence that the International Socialist Organization has on the members of the anti-war movement. A year ago, Victor was just a criminal who avoided his obligation. Today, he mouths the empty words of the class warriors.
Don’t forget how we saved the Kosovars, who are generally secular Muslims… I’m still waiting for the big capitalist payday from that one… But I suppose I should listen to this uneducated convicted criminal over the Guardsmen who continue to deploy to keep the peace.
Does Victor know how REAL Communists handle deserters and cos?
Is this dickdrip Matthis’ biggest meth customer? Overthrow the capitalist ruling class so that the lower working class has no where to go to work at. Like the Ghettonesians that want to break “the man”. How many jobs have the lower class financed lately? Is a severe lack of IQ one of the requirements of Idiotic Vermin Against Working?
You´re quite correct, the US´s role in the Middle East has been universally constructive and dedicated to bringing peace in such a volatile region.
Supporting paragons of good government like the Shah, the current government of Saudi Arabia, King Hassan, Husni al-Za´ím, playing both sides of the Iran-Iraq war, helping install Saddam Hussein and providing him with chemical weapons, training the Afghani Mujahadeen (part of which would later become the Taliban), giving unconditional support for Israel regardless of the circumstances, providing Turks with enough support to take care of their Kurdish problem, and then ultimately invading Iraq and Afghanistan among a thousand other things have ultimately contributed to a good image of the United States inside the Middle East, and the people there are quite thankful for the help.
Victor is a dumbass. He went AWOL not because he objected to the wars, but because he couldn’t manage his personal life. He is now saying this stuff because (a) he likes the notariety, (b) he is a borderline personality easily lead by the people surrounding him, and/or (d) people are giving him stuff to be their useful idiot.
As to you Chris, I believe you live in Germany. Have you sought to renounce your US citizenship and become a German citizen? If the US is so evil, I can’t imagine why you would want to retain you citizenship. The US isn’t perfect, but it is still better than anywhere else.
@Susan I never went AWOL and you know nothing of my personal life. Thanks for once again demonstrating that people with weak arguments can only resort to lies and ad hominem attacks to support their positions.
Excuse me Victor, I confused you with another of the Under the Hood idiots. You aren’t the one who couldn’t manage your personal life, you are the one that thought Noam Chomsky’s opinion would hold weight in your court martial. If this country is as evil as you say, please name one of which you would like to become a citizen. I might be willing to buy you a one-way ticket if you agree to NEVER come back.
Hey Victor; glad you could join us in this discussion. You and I have had a couple discussions about you, your thought process as to why you decided not to do what you signed up to do, etc. I find it interesting that you now are being played like a chump by a group of dumbasses for an ideology that has worked so well around the world, every time it is tried. I really feel sorry for you if you actually believe the bullshit you wrote. Somehow, I don’t think you wrote it so much as you copied it from one of the pamphlets that some worthless POS wrote up in his parent’s basement, because everyone knows that the true ideologues would never do anything to participate in the eeeeeevil capitalist system and give more fuel to the capitalist greed machine. Viva La Revolucion!!!
And thank you victor for expertly describing IVAW tactics.
Britton, I do miss your attacks against me on armyspace.com
“…for an ideology that has worked so well around the world”
Spare me this line. The former Soviet Union, China, North Korea, and Cuba were/are not socialist. They were/are state capitalist regimes and were/are capable of as much exploitation and repression as any other country. That said there are some positive things that can be said about Cuba. Sweden and Obama aren’t socialist, either. Socialism is ownership and control of the means of production by the working class. That doesn’t exist anywhere in the world.
Get your leftist groups straight. Adrienne Kinne wants a Stalinist/Maoist form of government? You really should cut back on the cigars, Jonn.
Yipers – Victor define working class. Define ownership. How is this utopia going to be managed. Time and experience has taught us where people see no advantage (i.e. personal gain) from working harder, they won’t. Where people get no personal reward from innovation, they won’t innovate.
It is time you asshats realize that some people are born to be leaders, and with that RESPONSABILITY, comes certain rewards. You can’t have a 9 to 5 job with no responability and expect to earn as much as the guy working 60 hour weeks with the responsability for keeping everyone employed.
For example, the Doctor earns more than the OR orderly. The doctor invested eight years in post-secondary schooling (4 years college 4 years high school) and between 2 and 6 years in training during which time he/she likely made less than the minimum wage if you divide income by hours. When they come to work in the morning, they no if they screw up, people die. This tends to weigh on one when not at work which is generally longer than 8 hours. The Orderly gets up, comes to work, is not responsible for life and death and goes home.
“You can’t have a 9 to 5 job with no responsibility and expect to earn as much as the guy working 60 hour weeks with the responsibility for keeping everyone employed“. That’s where you’re wrong Susan, Victor and the rest of the genetically unemployable not only expect that, they demand it. Or, they’ll go to their room and suck their thumb and hold their breath until someone makes it so.
Susan, no one should have to work anything close to 60 hours a week. A person who is studying to become a doctor shouldn’t have to worry about working while she is in school to support herself. She shouldn’t have a ton of student loans to pay off either. She also shouldn’t spend most of her time worrying about paperwork and frivolous lawsuits. A pilot shouldn’t make less than $20,000 year as many of them do. If everyone were guaranteed a comfortable living regardless of their job, plenty of people would rather study to become a doctor than work as an orderly.
The working class makes up about 75% of society. These are people must sell their labor for a wage in order to survive. Most workers (which may include you, Susan) earn their pay for the day within their first hour of work. The rest of the money goes to people above them whose work isn’t nearly as productive. Capitalism is institutionalized theft. It is a pyramid scheme.
The rest of the money goes to people above them whose work isn’t nearly as productive…
Well, other than the fact that they employ those people, provide jobs and income. They take the risk with their own money to start the business. They live at starvation wages until their business succeeds. And then you pop up years later and want a job that pays you at the same rate. Like I said; Naive.
Nice thought Victor – now wake up from the dream and live in the real world. Most people with responsabilities work 50 to 60 hours a week.
Let’s hear some of those positive things you can say about Cuba, Victor. You’re in Florida, ask some of your Cuban ex-patriot neighbors for some comments about Castro’s Cuba. Your naivete is amusing, yet not surprising.
Adrienne Kinne is whatever she says she is. The ISO happens to be Marxist/Trotskyist; which means they are useful idiots. Trotsky you may remember helped Lenin seize power and was then exiled to Mexico and later murdered by Stalin’s agents. A useful idiot.
The ISO is fond of calling the USSR, North Korea, China (and whoever else happened to murder their populations by the millions) state capitalists. So, you’ve learned the language of the ISO well.
Yes, Susan – it’s called being part of the working class.
“So, you’ve learned the language of the ISO well.”
Thanks, Jonn.
Yeah, the Soviet Union was pretty cool – in 1917.
Cuba’s a dictatorship with limited political freedoms – which is pretty horrible.
Life expectancy is at the same level it is in the U.S. (maybe even higher) and the literacy rate is higher (like 2nd in the world.) The are millions of children throughout the Americas (including the U.S.) who will sleep in the streets tonight – not one of them lives in Cuba. Pretty good for third world country.
The people of Cuba are certainly better off than they were before the present regime took power. All of this in spite of 50 years of attempts by imperialist nations (mainly the U.S.) to force a regime change.
That said, it isn’t socialist. Cuba is not the world I want.
Victor, I appreciate you weighing in openly. I would like to pose a respectful, but direct question to you. As my son was billed as speaking on behalf of the IVAW this past weekend, does my son speak for the IVAW or not? If not, why have you not corrected this situation? If he does then I respectfully quote you, “…people with weak arguments can only resort to lies and ad hominem attacks to support their positions.” As I have been on the receiving end of such an attack (Confessions [accusations] of a War Resistor) by a member of the organization, speaking for the organization, for which you are The Commanding Officer would that not put you in a postion of hypocrasy? Most respectfully, do you stand by Matthis, his actions, his statements, his accusations, his claims to speak for and represent the IVAW, or not?
Matthis spoke at an event sponsored by truthers as a member of the IVAW this weekend. How much misrepresentation was in that photo?
Good post, Robert, and I hear………crickets from Agosto. Robert only knows what he doesn’t like, he has no idea what he does like. A truly socialist country? Can’t find one, so he’d rather tear down something so he and his kind can be the rulers. Then everyone can work 60 hours a week, and the ones who do work, will earn the same as those who show up, after all, it’s not classist then. It’s the same old saw, socialism is a great system, we just haven’t had the right people put it in practice. Ever! Anywhere!
@Robert
It’s my understanding that Matthis is no longer a member of IVAW (perhaps one of Jonn’s moles can confirm), so the point might a bit moot. I also don’t hold any type of authority in IVAW right now.
Since IVAW has a membership with widely varying perspectives, I don’t believe any member really speaks for the organization…
Matthis is sincere in his opposition to the wars. I don’t always agree with his approach, and I know he doesn’t always agree with mine.
I have no way of knowing if Matthis’s “attacks” against you are true or not. I have never spoken to him about that, and I have no clue about the nature of the physical and emotional abuse he describes in “Confessions.” I think just about everyone endures physical or emotional abuse at some point or another. I do hope that you and Matthis reconcile your differences at some point if that is possible.
Victor? You maintain that “no one should have to work anything close to 60 hours a week. A person who is studying to become a doctor shouldn’t have to worry about working while she is in school to support herself. She shouldn’t have a ton of student loans to pay off either. She also shouldn’t spend most of her time worrying about paperwork and frivolous lawsuits. A pilot shouldn’t make less than $20,000 year as many of them do.”
I ask two questions for each of those assertions – why, and what makes your ‘whys’ correct?
Victor–I’d like to pile on (ahem, I mean “address”) your points from Post 13…
no one should have to work anything close to 60 hours a week.
Unless one WANTS to in order to become more wealthy and successful than they would otherwise. Hell, I’m doing that now, not including drive time to and from work 6 days a week.
A person who is studying to become a doctor shouldn’t have to worry about working while she is in school to support herself. She shouldn’t have a ton of student loans to pay off either.
Seems to me that a lot of the increase in the cost of education comes from the fact that people are willing to “pay any price” for a piece of paper that often is useless in the real world upon graduation. And as Econ 101 tells us, the price charged is based on what the market will bear, or in this case, however much “free” money can be squeezed through the government via the taxpayer, with a significant portion of that left to support the bureaucracy in perpetuity.
A pilot shouldn’t make less than $20,000 year as many of them do.
http://www.pea.com/imd/airline-pilot-salary.asp
Show me one. Most of them, even on the lower end, make double that, and their lodging and benefits are on par with anything you and I will ever see. IOW, they live far better than their salaries would indicate.
If everyone were guaranteed a comfortable living regardless of their job, plenty of people would rather study to become a doctor than work as an orderly.
There’s so much stupidity in that one statement I don’t even know where to begin. No, Scooter–if everyone made the same, people would do the bare fucking minimum to get that; IOW, lowest common demoninator. You’d have a world of shit-shovelers, and no rocket scientists.
These are people must sell their labor for a wage in order to survive. Most workers (which may include you, Susan) earn their pay for the day within their first hour of work.
Funny, I don’t remember my wage scale being $300 for the first hour and $0 after that. And the first hour at MY work consists of safety briefings and job assignment/walkdown.
The rest of the money goes to people above them whose work isn’t nearly as productive.
I’ll be sure to tell the managers whose decisions keep your fucking lights on that their work isn’t productive.
Well, Victor, it’s ok to be able to read, as long as it conforms to what the gummint wants you to, in Cuba. Life expectancy are the same? Ok, I’ll let you have that; but what kind of life is it?
If you want the answer, go to this site and read it
http://www.therealcuba.com/
Heheheeee, even Castro is finally admitting things haven’t worked out the way he wanted in Cuba and that they could be much much better than they are.
Read up and stay current Victor.
So many questions, so little time. I’m not going to spend all night combating lifetimes of ruling class indoctrination. If you really wanna know…
http://www.socialistworker.org
http://www.isreview.org
http://www.internationalsocialist.org
If you have trouble reading, there’s:
http://www.wearemany.org
Until next time…
I can’t give Victor a hard time for not deploying since I have no desire or intention of fighting in Afghanistan. I would personally feel it would be hypocritical of me to do so since I do not agree with the war there, even though, yes, I did deploy under stop-loss to Iraq. That was a call I made, he made a different one.
Having said that, I get tired of one sided views. Turn on the TV and you can hear how everything that is wrong with this country is the liberals fault. But there is also other people that will blame capitalism, or this, or that, with the same one sided approach. That is why I am not an “ist” or “ism” of any kind and also not a joiner. I find that it closes your mind to new ideas or meeting in the middle. That can be found here on this site with some of the people that post responses, but you also find it one the other side of the fence in the anti-war movement. Enemies share a lot more in common then they like to admit.
For Victor, I do want to ask you a question: If I where a Socialist, the type that you are, and I was fed up with this country and wanted to live someplace that embraced my ideals and way of life, where would I go? I would not be concerned about learning a new language or currency exchange. I think if someone is going to advocate for anything, they need real, tangible, practical examples to point too. Where would I go?
Also, no one post hateful things in reply to my request, I want him to answer it hassle free.
@Casey
If you were a socialist, the type that I am, you would fight to end capitalism no matter where you were (even Cuba). Capitalism is a global system. There is no running away from it. Everyone who is exploited by this system has a reason to be fed up with it.
I’m exploited by capitalism, and I don’t mind. Mostly because I exploit capitalism, too. But then, I’m not a lazy fuck who wants shit given to me. But, that’s just me…well, me and a couple billion other people.
Ok, fine. But is there not a successful Socialist nation I could fight from?
@Casey
Not at the moment. Russia was a workers’ state very briefly after the October 1917 revolution but was invaded by 14 capitalist armies which destroyed the working class.
Ok, what about in the past then? You talked about Russia, did they further back in their past, or another country bring it to a successful fruition for a good amount of time?
@Casey
Just Russia, very briefly. The Paris Commune of 1871 was limited to Paris, but it too was crushed by capitalist powers.
Before that, the closest examples would be pre-industrial societies that owned property communally and had limited hierarchical structures. Many Native American tribes fit this description. This way of life is why many Europeans who were captured by Native American tribes chose to stay with them when given the option to return home. It rarely the other way around…
In any case, if the world only consisted of monarchies, would it be wrong for someone to advocate for representative democracy, even though it didn’t exist?
No, and I don’t mind people advocating something different. But once again, I thrive off of practical examples. I want to see it in action before hand. Even if it’s something from the past. Show me it works in the real World then I might be more inclined to get down with it.
Plus, and this isn’t a cheap shot, but in the examples you did point out you also pointed out how the fall of Socialist cities/nations where because of Capitalists on the war path. I find that so many Socialists and a big chunk of the anti-war movement does play victim quite a bit. When asked directly why an action or something didn’t work, it’s not because the action was bullshit or poorly conceived, it’ because some outside agitator screwed it up. It just seems to me that people in the anti-war movement don’t want to win, and almost seem to desire being on the loosing end. I wonder what would happen to some many anti-war people if Obama just said: “Screw it, they’ll all be home in a month.” , and he actually did it.
On a side note, I think someone above posted you live in Miami? If so, great city. I like how the building codes are set-up so that many historical buildings are protected. I try to get down whenever I can to photograph the architecture and other spots. Oh, and Little Havana, with the shops that role their own cigars, Heaven.
When advocating for representative democracies, there was a blueprint that was Rome when the Senate controlled. It was not perfect, but it was a blueprint.
The reality is that socialism does not work because man is who and what he is. Some people in this world are smarter than others. Some people are born to lead and others to follow. Some are corrupt and will find a way to corrupt any scheme.
Because your version of socialism requires the absense of corruption, the absence of the drive to achieve more for oneself by doing more, and the absence of a desire to have more than the “common man” – it will never work.
@Casey
Capitalists will always attack any group that tries to attain independence from their system. It doesn’t mean it isn’t worth it to fight against them or that our strategy cannot be improved. The fate of the planet depends on it. Capitalists don’t give a damn about destroying the planet so long as it gives them increased profits.
Obama can’t just say, “Screw it, they’ll all be home in a month” If he did, he would either be assassinated or the captains of industry would wreck the economy as punishment. If there is no movement to end the war, it won’t end until the capitalists achieve their aims – which are to build permanent bases in southwest Asia to exert power over a resource-rich region. Imperialist war is the highest form of capitalism. You and I don’t benefit from America’s control of oil fields, gas pipeline routes and mineral deposits – the capitalist class does – we just pay the bill to keep the troops there.
@Casey
Well Casey, the capitalist class is certainly “winning.” If I wanted to be on the side that’s winning right now I would do everything I could to become part of the capitalist class. At one time, that is exactly how I thought. As much as I believe that I could personally attain that goal, the fact is that’s a very small club, a club that exists solely because of the exploitation of most of the world’s people. I’d rather lose than win that way.
I’ve got a couple of thing I must take care of tonight so I will reply latter. Victor, I never said I was a Capitalist. Remember I’m not an “ist” or “ism”. I also want to be clear that they do not want to win on their terms, not the terms of others or joining another side altogether.
I know people have varying views on my Iraq films, but what if I made everyone of them from a victim view point? Crying how I am a victim of this or that instead of just fighting? I prefer a good fight and winning on my own terms.
Latter, we can talk about that long hours thing too.
@Casey
Fair enough, Casey. A wise person once said “You can’t be neutral on a moving train.” You are not a capitalist since you do not own the means of production. Your failure to oppose the status quo (capitalism) makes you a supporter of capitalism.
VICTOR:
I am a capitalist. I work, at what I do, I charge what I feel like charging, I work as many hours as I care to work, never more, never less, and I put money away so that from time to time, I can really live it up. In Cuba, (I go there as a Big Game fisherman), whether you work hard or not, whether you do good work or not, you get paid the same. People are glad to pay me twice what they could get someone else to do the job for. Because they know that I will deliver a quality level of work that will make my wage be actually lower than the slovenly, socialist type, that is willing to work for pocket change.
Cuba is hell! And, since America is so evil, why are cubans, haitians, meskins, somalis, and so many others risking their lives to get here?
You said that you are a socialist. Why in hell don’t you take Susan up on her offer and haul your dumb socialist ass to a socialist country?
Victor, the system that you profess would have had you shot for refusing to deploy. Or the fact that you idolize Mao who caused the famine of the “Great Leap Forward” leading to many deaths. Our you could have had fun in the Sino-Vietnamese War.
But more so that you robed someone else of a year with their family because you did not go. Also the fact that you try to tell other how we are committing crimes from the safety of the FOB. I how many times did you talk to the population at all.
So with that in mind we really do not really have a interest in socialism. Because the phrase “the people” means everyone else except you.
Also I have a interesting comment about how you act in Fort Hood.
So this guy in my unit, while at first looked like he had some kind of plan, going the contentious objector route, opted instead to take the fools route. I had a talk or two with him, asking him what his plan of attack was going to be, do you have a back up plan and so on. To me a good leader will do his best to help even if that leader doesn’t agree with the choice being made by the soldier!! At some point his plan was to just disobey any and every order given to him!! During a process we all have to go through before we can get a green light to go, he was told by our First Sergeant to get some paperwork he needed to complete this process, his response was a firm ” NO!” I was shocked when I heard it the first time and by the third go around I was concerned my First Sergeants was going to go into a blind rage and choke this guy out.
He just kept refusing and finally Top walked away. This was bad, it happened in front of our whole unit many of which were brand new soldier. I walk down to have a word yet again with this guy, telling him that this is a fight he is not going to win at this stage, trust me I know, I told him!! I suggested he get his paperwork and fight it later.
That’s Lenin, Sporkmaster. And thanks for reminding me of that story.
@Warren
“contentious objector” I like that… I also like how people totally ignore the points I made earlier…I’m not about to repeat myself.
If you are implying that I’ve called soldiers criminals, you have me confused me with someone else.
Funny how you should mention ignoring points, considering you’ve ignored every single one that has been made to refute your bullshit.
@NHS There’s one of me and like 10 of you here. I can’t possibly respond to all of your questions since many require long answers. I know you are used to being told all you need to know in 30 second soundbytes, but not everything can be answered that way.
Victor, Wow, just wow. It sounds like you actually believe your own BS.
Guess what, you probably already make more in this capitalist system than you would in ANY socialist/communist system. Do you realize Our welfare recipients live better lives than 80% of the world? Oh yeah, we say they’re below the poverty line, but evidently the poverty line is somewhere above PS3’s, cable tv, and flat screens.
You said that Afghanistan would be better under the Taliban then us. Considering how the Taliban have acted in the past, do you really not see what that says about us?
People say, ‘Look, I know the U.S. military operations in Afghanistan are not necessarily the most productive, but imagine there were no American soldiers there -– the Taliban would just take over again.’
I don’t really see that as worse than what we’re doing now. As I said before, until we actually address the grievances of people in that part of the world, we’re really not going to defeat terrorism. Being there does make things worse. It wouldn’t be an ideal situation to just leave and then perhaps the Taliban would re-establish control over the country, but that to me would be better than what’s going on right now.
Somebody already said Wow, but I have to repeat it…WOW. I didn’t think people like this actually existed anymore. I can picture him in a Mao jacket and hat reciting this power to the people stuff. I really thought we had put paid to this stuff back in the 80s. Remarkable.
Viktor, (Socialist spelling). What do you make of this in your Idyllic land that was once known as “The Gem of the Caribbean”?: “Promised economic reforms get under way in communist Cuba; 500,000 state workers to lose jobs”
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/09/13/cuba-state-employees-reforming-salaries-increasing-self-employment/?test=latestnews
Now those people won’t “have to work” 60 hours a week will they?
Sorry for my mispost in #20, “Robert only knows what he doesn’t like” was obviously a mistake, I meant Victor, not Robert. Woulda corrected it earlier but was away.
And, I agree with the WOW, who would have thought 60’s throwbacks were still around?
@Warren
Yes, the situation was terrible before the U.S. invaded Afghanistan – now it’s even worse. Karzai is basically the mayor of Kabul, with almost no influence beyond the capital. U.S. troops don’t control anything beyond their own bases.
Every time innocent people die as U.S. troops hunt down insurgents/terrorists, new insurgents/terrorists are created in process. The occupation is completely counter-productive to the stated aims of the U.S.
Tens of thousands of Afghan civilians have been killed during the occupation. The U.S. is backing warlords who are no better than the Taliban. Before the invasion, Afghanistan had the third highest incidence of death for women during childbirth. Today, it has the highest incidence of death for women during childbirth. Last year, UNICEF ranked Afghanistan as the worst place in the world to be born – this after almost a decade of U.S. occupation! The U.S. is paying one million dollars per deployed soldier per year for this? The troops need to come home.
“If you’re not with us, you’re against us.” – George W. Bush shortly after the 9/11 attacks.
“If you’re not with us, you’re against us.” – Elaine Brower on a Facebook posting.
“You are not a capitalist since you do not own the means of production. Your failure to oppose the status quo (capitalism) makes you a supporter of capitalism.” – Victor Agosto
You see how the following statements are connected? All of the statements require and very locked-in mindset. Just like my above comment about how those who blame liberals for everything wrong in this country, or believe that Obama is a Socialist, etc etc. It requires you to think just like them, if not, you are wrong, and we will beat you over the head with our point of view until you agree with us, or we run you off.
Furthermore, you have not proven it works. If it did, it would have survived somewhere, somehow for a certain amount of time. But I hear the same excuses from any side trying to sell what can’t be sold. It’s always the big outside agitator that is defeating it, not the people who are actually pushing it. If Socialism worked, it would have been easy for you to point to something from the past, or perhaps modern times, and say “See, right here? It’s kicking ass and helping people live better lives.”
It’s a lot like religion in that respect. I’m not a man of faith, and I don’t hate any one religion, but it’s a group of people that believe in something or someone they’ve never seen. You have faith that Socialism would work, just not proof that it does.
Plus, no matter what structure we live under, greed and corruption will always be a major problem.